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Hello, hello.

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Hello, hi everyone. Welcome to the second live session of the NFTs and the Metaverse

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course offered by the University of Nicosia in partnership with Punk 6529 and the OM.

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I'm George Giaglis and before introducing our topic and our lecturers for today, I'd like

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to take a couple of minutes to remind everyone of a few things related to the course logistics.

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First of all, as you all know, we are building the OM's Metacampus, so we should soon be

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able to migrate most of our future educational activities there. You should be able to see

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the Metacampus building site on your right as you look at this screen, so hopefully that

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direction. After we finish today's session, I encourage everyone to make the short journey

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to the portal to the Metacampus and visit it. You will just be able to see our first construction

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there, which is an open amphitheater, where we will probably be meeting for next week's

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live session, but over the coming weeks we will be rolling out other places in the campus

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as well. So that's number one. Number two, please remember that this is an on-chain course,

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so we will be trying to touch upon centralized systems as little as possible. To this end,

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most of the educational material for the course will be made accessible to you in the form

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of NFTs. Those of you who had minted the course access token by last Friday should have already

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received in your course wallet another NFT, this time an ERC 1155 token. Remember the

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the discussion we had last week about standards. This token contains all the slides from last

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week's presentation. You should be able to view this NFT on marketplaces like OpenSea

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or LuxRare, although you may need to try different browsers and settings to get it to work properly

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for you. For me, the best experience has been to view it in OpenSea using Firefox as a browser,

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as Chrome seems to be blocking its content by default, at least on my Mac. We're working

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to make future drops easier to interact with, so if you have any ideas or comments about

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that, as always, please drop us a note on Discord or Twitter or in the chat here. Number

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three, please note that all material regarding the course will be made available on our GitHub

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account, including our live sessions. The live sessions will also be available on YouTube

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for those of you that cannot make the live session. Always monitor our Twitter account,

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this is the UNIC Metaverse account, for details on how to access this material on more

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centralized, let's say, service providers. Number four, don't forget that you can use

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the OM chat here to ask any questions you want to the lecturers that relate to today's session.

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Starting today, we will also be taking questions from Twitter. Just make sure that you either use

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the NFTQnA hashtag when posting your question and or mention the UNIC Metaverse account so

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that we can pick the question and feed it to the lecturers. The final thing, please note that in order

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to manage the load on OM, we are splitting the class into rooms. Each room will have a maximum

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capacity of 500 people. So please note that if you leave and reenter the OM during the live

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session, you might find yourself in a different room with different classmates, different chat

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history, etc. There's nothing to do on your side. I'm just noting this so that you're not confused

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if you find yourself in another classroom suddenly. Also, please note that if you remain inactive for a

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period of time, your avatar doesn't move, you don't do anything in the chat or anything, OM will

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automatically lock you out of multiplayer mode and you will find yourself alone in the Metaverse

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world. So in that case, simply reload the page and re-enter in multiplayer to find your classmates

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again. Okay, now on to today's lecture. Today's session is about a very important, I would dare

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say fundamental aspect of NFTs and this is copyright, trademarks and licensing. Punk 6529

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hinted at the importance of this last week, but today we're going to do a deep dive in the subject

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and explore its different dimensions. As the topic is highly specialized, this week I'm going to be

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taking a backstage role and I'm going to leave the floor to experts. So today's session will be a

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presentation and a live discussion between 6529 and our first guest in this course. So it is a

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pleasure and an honor to present to you Ms. Eliana Torres. Let me read this so that I don't make

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any mistake. Eliana is an attorney in the intellectual property group at Nixon Peabody LLP,

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where she's part of Nixon's blockchain Metaverse and IP teams. She focuses her practice on

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technology transactions, copyrights and trademarks, but she's also an avid collector of NFTs,

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where she has witnessed the many issues involving IP around them. Prior to joining Nixon,

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Eliana practiced as a trademark attorney for the United States Patent and Trademark Office,

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so I cannot think of a better person to discuss issues related to copyright in NFTs with 6529

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than Eliana. Before giving the floor to her, I would like to give the floor very briefly to

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6529 to introduce today's session and then I'm going to leave him and Eliana to drive the discussion.

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So the floor is yours. Thank you George and thank you everyone and great to be back here. I just

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wanted to note the following. I think copyright and trademark issues are among the most misunderstood

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issues in NFTs, so I think this session is very important from a fundamental basis. I also think

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it is important to understand that Eliana is a lawyer, but at the end of the session you will

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not be a lawyer, so this one session will not substitute for many years of law school and

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practicing as a lawyer, so if you are someone who is active in the space, perhaps as a creator or

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a licensee or you're planning something significant to do with IP in the space, regardless of what

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we cover today, you should hire a relevant lawyer with relevant expertise to help you with whatever

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you're going to do. I am not a lawyer, I am a civilian on this topic. I think I know much more

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than most civilians and yet if I had a complicated issue of this type, I would also hire a lawyer.

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So what I hope we can accomplish today is Eliana will cover some of the basics in the first half

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of the session, and then she and I will have a discussion on some of the more juicy spicy issues

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that exist right now in NFTs, and then we'll do the normal Q&A at then, so with that I'll hand it

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over to Eliana. First of all I want to say thank you for allowing me to be here to 6529 for George,

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everyone else that has helped made this happen, it's a historical moment for all of us, and with that

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said I think we could get started with our lecture for today, and I think it's important for us to

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start with some basics, so if we could get our agenda for today on the next slide please? So this

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is where we are, this is our session two, and we'll have an agenda in the next slide. So we'll go

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over intellectual property, trademarks, copyrights, the transfer of copyrights, NFT licenses, and then

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we'll have the Q&A and conclusions with some further reading and some assignments for you guys.

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So starting with intellectual property, which is the next slide, well we already gave this

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claimer, so let's make sure that we all remember that, and there we go. So intellectual property,

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so I thought it would be useful for us to start with just the basics of what intellectual property

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is, and what it encompasses, and the major areas of law that touches on NFTs. So if we have the

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next slide we'll have a breakdown of the major, the trifecta of intellectual property laws and

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intellectual property in the U.S., so we have the intellectual property definition, which is

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basically you have creations of the mind, such as inventions, literary, artistic works, designs,

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symbols, names, and images using commerce, and they break down into three major areas. Patent for

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the most part is not going to be as relevant today, so I'll leave it aside for the moment, but

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basically it's inventions, and you'll have an exclusive right granted for an invention once

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you go to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, and you'll have to go through this artist's process

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to actually get patent rights. At that point you'll be the inventor of that specific patent, but

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you will have to go through that process in order for you to secure that right. That one won't be

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as relevant today, so we'll focus mostly on copyright and trademarks. So copyrights protect

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the original work, and it subsists, so it is basically curated for the time that you put that

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in paper or in any kind of medium that is tangible, and you are the author who become the, basically

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the owner of this copyright from that moment on. Trademark is an indicator of source, basically,

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so you have words, phrases, symbols, signs, or a combination, and they basically distinguish the

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source of goods or services, so basically like the Nike switch that you see, you associate that

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with the source of being Nike for anything that has that specific symbol. So in the next slide,

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we'll start with trademarks. I think the most contentious issues revolve around copyright,

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so that trademarks, we could go briefly over what a trademark is and how to acquire this right,

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and then we'll go into the more substantive issues of copyright. So starting with trademarks,

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in the next slide, we have the definition of a trademark, so you have basically get an exclusive

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right to use a mark in connection with some goods or services, and you get to protect that from

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infringement on dilution, so from anyone using this mark in association with similar goods or

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services. You basically have this right in perpetuity, so as long as you continue to renew it

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and continue to use this right in commerce, so in whatever it is that you decide to use in association

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with your goods or services, as long as you continue using that in commerce, and you continuously

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renew it with the trademark office, if you do have a registration, then that continues to exist.

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So basically, you have goods and services that you use, whatever it is you're using,

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whether a symbol, marker, or a wording, or a combination in commerce, and that is associated

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with specific classes that are considered basically just the categories in which you are using that

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mark in association with. That's how the USPTO classifies them in NFTs, and we'll see this later,

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the specific guidance as to where you should place these classes or how you should describe

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these goods and services according to the USPTO, but I'll go into that in a little bit later. So

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the next slide, please. So we have a lot of NFTs projects that have trademarked their names or

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their brands or in association to anything that they've created. In 2021, actually, there were

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about just a handful of trademarks, maybe 100 or so, and this year, there's been an influx of

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trademarks just related to a metaverse NFTs. So we've seen a huge rise in trademark applications

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that have been filed for specific classes related to NFTs. These classes, as I mentioned, categories

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tend to be class 9 and 42 and some 35. So again, not to confuse you guys, these are just numbers

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that kind of indicate some categories basically, and the majority of those are in class 9 because

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they are considered by the USPTO as downloadable goods that are associated with an underlying

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asset. So you still have to define what that asset is. So similarly, how we have what was

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mentioned in the previous class, which you have the token and you purchase a token, not necessarily

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one that you buy the token and the asset together, but the token relates or points or links back to

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the underlying asset. Similarly, USPTO is using that same kind of definition to categorize this

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trademark registrations. So most of them will be in class 9, all of them for the most part. If you

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have a known downloadable asset or token that links back to something else, you further define

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what that something else is basically, but it will remain in class 9 as a downloadable asset

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basically. So Fedenza actually has a trademark for Fidenza. Then you have cryptopunks and a lot

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of these are still in the stages of examination. So they'll go through a process of examination

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before getting to the registration from right now. There's a backload since we have so many

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trademarks for this specific classes of goods, and they are taking about 9 to 10 months to

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examine this. So we'll see what happens with this trademark applications. There are not

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registrations yet, some of them. Next slide please. So you actually don't need to register your

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trademark, but it is highly encouraged. So what that means is once you start using something in

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commerce, you basically have a trademark by Commonwealth. So you start using that in commerce,

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whatever that is that you use, it is highly recommended for you to have a registration,

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and you have to show that you're using that in commerce. And that is to show that consumers

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are identifying your product or service with that specific trademark. So the reason why we

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normally advise to have a registration is because you get the ability to enforce your trademark

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rights, and it is highly advisable just because your rights are limited under common law if you

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don't have that registration. And in order for you to bring that lawsuit, you have that registration

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and it's kind of proof that you actually have been using that in commerce across the United

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States. So having said that, there are some protections that the trademark does not extend to

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basically, or they're commonly known as fair use, and they relate to two specific ones. So we have

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classic and nominative fair use, and these are basically just acceptance. I don't want to call

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it exceptions, but they just, trademark rights would not extend to this basically. So classic fair

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use is when someone uses a trademark and is used to describe goods or services. So basically

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you're not using it to indicate source for whatever you are selling, but you're only using that other

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trademark, someone else's rights to describe your specific goods. So for example, you're using it to

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describe a service. So you're using a trademark for, I don't know, Apple to describe that you offer

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technical services. And you say, you know, we service computers from Apple to Samsung, you're

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not using that to indicate the source of your services and being Apple and Samsung, you're

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basically using that to reference to your own services. Similarly, we have nominative use,

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and you are using it, there's been some case law around nominative use and how much of it you're

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allowed to use someone else's mark in order to describe something else basically. And it could

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be really complex, which is why I kind of just want to breeze over it. This is going to come up

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mostly in some of the case law that we have right now, or not even precedent yet, but some of the

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cases that have been brought in NFT related cases against some infringement that has gone

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on in the space. So common situations where you would use how fair use will be news reporting,

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commentary, product review, parity, and some comparative advertising. So when you are using

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it basically to make fun of or not make fun of it, create some sort of common relief around a

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specific issue and you use somebody else's trademark. That's basically what that would

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entail, but there's some very specific guidelines as to how you go through the definition of fair

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use and where that actually is fair use in relation to all these situations. And hopefully

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as not too complex. But next slide, please. So again, this is why I wanted to kind of

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leave the fair use arguments for this, and this is because we have some trademark infringement

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cases right now. Most of them are surrounding the creation of NFTs that represents some physical

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items. So like that's basically Hermes and Mason Rothschild. So in Metaberkin's case,

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that we'll come to know. In that case, and I think the majority of us have heard of it,

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there was an NFT that was created that resembled the Metaberkin's bags, which are

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quite famous and very expensive. And this designation or this NFT basically was quote

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unquote commentary on the use of specific, it was a political commentary according to the creator.

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However, if he made a significant amount of money, so they had Hermes International soon,

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this creator, and we are still waiting for a decision. The last thing we heard was that

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an injunction was that a motion to dismiss actually was failed. So it was rejected. So

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the loss is going to continue. And I think this case is going to be very important because it's

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going to define whether you have, if you have a trademark for a specific good that is physical.

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So like the Medaverkin's trade dress and the actual trademark of the Birkin's bags,

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whether those are too, you can conflate those basically. So whether you could have an infringement

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because someone else is creating that in a digital form in an NFT. So this is going to determine

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the extent or the scope of the protection of the current registrations for existing brands.

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And then we have the Nike StockX. And this is a little bit different in that,

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and I find this one particularly interesting because Nike in StockX are, again,

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StockX is a reseller of goods and they are using NFTs in association with the shoes that

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they resell. So most of the arguments are kind of surrounding the argument or the analogy that

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is a receipt. So you're basically authenticating actual goods that you can then later on redeem

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as the shoe themselves or they're associated to the shoes. The shoes are Nike's shoes,

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essentially, in StockX because they're reseller. So this one's particularly interesting because

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it brings a lot of kind of doctrines that we have not determined whether they're applicable

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to the NFT space, such as the first sale doctrine and this first sale doctrine basically,

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and I don't want to go into a rabbit hole, but you basically have the ability to sell

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something once you purchase it. So once I buy a painting, I have the right to sell that.

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And that would be like basically what some of the arguments that they're making in this case,

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but these are all trademark related cases that we have yet to resolve. So we'll have the next

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slide before I go in the rabbit hole and know the descriptions of the cases. So now we enter

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into copyright, and this is particularly applicable to the NFT space. We'll go into the next slide,

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please. Copyright creation is basically once you put something in a tangible medium. So if I write

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something in a piece of paper and that's already a tangible and there's enough originality,

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that's enough for me to have a copyright. And that's differentiated from a copyright,

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from a copyright registration. They're separate. So when I say copyright, it's just basically you

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own that copyright, that creation that you made. If you go through a registration process, we'll

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talk about that later, but it's separate. So you own your copyright, that does not mean you

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have a copyright registration. So right now, the laws recently changed from the Copyright Act in

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1976. And you have the life of the author plus 70 years is the extent of your copyright. That's

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how long it will be protected for. And you get with a copyright, you get a bundle of sticks or a

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bundle of rights that we commonly recognize as this six basic rights that you have the right to

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reproduce, prepare derivative work, distribute, perform, display, transmit. So with a copyright,

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you get the right to kind of control this, this the ability to any of those things and exclude

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anyone from doing any of those things. Next slide, please. So now in the reason why I'm going so

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fast is because we're going to enter into a really kind of interesting points about all of these

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issues. One of the issues in copyright is the originality and the fixation. So these are requirements

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for you to have a copyright. The originality is basically a minimum degree of creativity. And

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that's argued in not to get very, I guess, into a new nuances of the entity space. But generative

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works are arguably all of them have the end of creativity, but someone may argue they do not.

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So then we go into the authorship, which is partly the same argument I just made earlier about the

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minimum degree of creativity, because if you use an AI system, for example, AI like Dali or any AI

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platform or coding or anything else that kind of creates the work for you, you still would need that

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level of creativity. And it's a although it's a low standard, you still will be questioned by the

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copyright office about how you use the system and whether that is enough to have a, I guess,

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personhood or human creativity by the human. Because otherwise, you will not be entitled to

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that registration. But the originality comes up often in the infringement cases and that

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registration process. So those are the two times that you'll see this coming to question.

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And then the last thing we need is the fixation. So you'll have the tangible medium of expression

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and whether that's sufficient. And you just need the minimal degree of creativity. Again,

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that's kind of reemphasized there. We'll go into the next slide, please. And this is where it gets

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fun. You have the human authorship requirement and the definition of author is not in the copyright

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act. But they have clearly distinguished and established that you need a human creation

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component. And this was established mostly by Supreme Court in this case, where they determined

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that human authorship was essential to copyright protection. And then it was reemphasized by the

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copyright office in the compendium, where they mentioned that a work must be created by a human

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being. And then it was reemphasized in this really fun case where a monkey basically grabbed

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someone else's camera and took some selfies. And then the copyright office did not grant

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the registration because they said the animal basically was not a human and could not get this

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copyright registration. And that is the actual selfie of the monkey. Next one, please.

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So by default, the creator owns the copyright at the moment of fixation. Again, this is different

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from the registration. And the physical work is not the same thing as ownership in that copyright.

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So if I buy a painting by Botero, this Colombian artist, I could get the physical copy, but that

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does not mean that I could start then using that same painting to distribute in advertising

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or putting in a movie or use it for other purposes that are commercial or even non-commercial. So

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unless they're following the fair use. But you purchase this painting, you do not get the copyright

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and we'll see how that's similar to NFT space coming up. We'll go into the next slide, please.

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Again, this is a kind of expanded definition of the human authorship requirements. Recently,

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the copyright board dealt with a case by Dr. Thaler, where he tried to copyright a painting

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or a work of art rather, I'm sorry, and he was called the entrance to paradise. And this work of

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art was created by a machine that he coded called creative machine. And the problem here was that

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he named the author the creative machine. So the author was the AI system itself.

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He didn't name himself as the author, he named himself as the owner. So the output of this machine

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and the author was the creative machine. So that is when it became an issue for the copyright

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office and they decided not to grant this registration. And this was later on appealed and

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he still lost it against the board and then he filed lawsuits in DC. And we'll see how that

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turns out. But I think for the last we have heard of this is that they're not going to grant

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him this registration because you have to have the level of authorship that human being as a creator.

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This is different and I want to emphasize this because I have seen this in the space lately

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where we read from some articles that there was a copyright registration issued for a comic strip,

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I think was a comic strip where the AI machine was used. And that was different because the

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author was not named as the AI machine and they copyright office did question the level of

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creativity or the level of work from the human. Yeah, you could go to the next one. I think I'm

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taking a little long so we'll go really quick on that over the next slide. These are the not

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protected things under copyright. Basically you have also fair use similar to to what we mentioned

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for trademarks. And if you want to go to the next slide we'll go into this a little bit faster so

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we can get to the fun stuff. Ideas, procedures, processes and systems. So basically anything

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that's factual it would not be protected on the copyright just doesn't have enough level of creativity

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for the most part that there will be one of the questions that you have when determining whether

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that is fair use. And then both the main works so disclaiming any kind of works under CCO which

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will also will co-relator are also not protected on the copyright once you kind of disclaim those

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rights. So basically you give up or you waive all your rights to the creation that you made.

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We could go on to the next slide so we'll move a little faster. Again this is a copyright

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doctrine of fair use. And it's an affirmative defense and you have this four-part test that

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I alluded to earlier. And these are four of the queries that the courts will look at when

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determining whether a work was fair use and that should not be protected on the copyright,

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therefore potentially no infringement. So they would use this and a case by case determination.

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These are not exclusive to or not the spotters that you don't have to have. You could have a

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little bit more on one of these factors than the others and the courts are kind of there's no

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no bright area. There's no black and white. It's kind of a gray area where they lean on this

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four-part test. And normally this is used as an affirmative defense and we could go on to the next

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slide. So this part I and I included this slide because I think it's important for us in this

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space to understand a little bit of what works for hire are in the copyright context because

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a lot of the projects right now that I've seen they contract out the creation of the work. So

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they'll have a third party create the art or the music or the video for the NFT projects. So these

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are commonly known as works for hire and they come into specific situations. So one would be

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as an employee. So you create this work of whatever it is that you created for your employer,

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then essentially your employer is the owner and the creator legally the creator of the of the work

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and you give up basically your rights to that owner to that employer. And then the second

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situation in which this comes about will be in this nine categories and unwriting agreement. So

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you have a work for hire agreement basically and you would basically give up their rights

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to that creation to the person who hired you. And these are usually commission works. So

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one of those works will have to fall into this nine categories. And then if none of these takes

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place you would basically enter into an agreement with whoever hired you or whoever you hired and

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you will have an assignment. And we'll have a little bit more expanded definitions of what an

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assignment is in the next few slides. But for the most part they serve work for hire situations

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and they're very two specific situations in which this comes about. We'll have the next slide please.

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This is also important in the space because creators often do this the works or do the

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creations as joint authors. So as a team and this is basically works that are prepared by

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two or more people. So authors, but they have to have that intention that the contributions be

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one. So merge into inseparable parts or independent parts. So by unitary whole and the act is very

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specific about what a joint work is. They would both have an undivided interest in the entirety

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of the copyright and they can exploit the work on a non-exclusive basis without the permission

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of the other. So basically they could have that non-exclusive use as long as they take

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account of the other person and they give them their fair share of profits if they are exploiting

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that. And as long as they don't harm the actual work. This is also important for any creators out

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there in the entity space that are creating works with more than one person making sure that you

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guys have an agreement in place where this is kind of clear as to what you're allowed and not

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allowed to do as a joint author and there's an understanding of what that means. We'll go to

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the next slide please. So we'll go into the registration process which I mentioned earlier.

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The registration does not affect the nature of your copyright but it does affect your ability

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to enforce these rights. Your rights will be limited. You will not be able to bring the federal

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court lawsuits unless you have this registration or a registration rejection. So there's also

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this is not often mentioned but if you did not get a registration from the copyright office you

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could still bring lawsuits and you have to argue that you should have gotten the registration so

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as part of there will be part of your argument but for the most part and just to for simplicity

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you do need a registration to bring a lawsuit in the federal court system and get to enforce your

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rights and that's to stop someone from infringing on your copyright and this is also an example of

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what the copyright registration would look like. Fidenza which I mentioned earlier has a trademark

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registration but they also have a copyright registration which is really interesting to me.

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They have copyright registration on individual fidenzas and I've looked at how many they have.

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I don't remember the exact number but they this one's fidenza number 56 they actually number them

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and they have individual they didn't copyright them as a collection of works but they copyright

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each one of these individually which is very interesting. We'll go into the next slide.

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So we'll get into it more of a guess debated discussion of what the transfers

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in copyrights entail since they apply pretty heavily to the NFT space. We'll go into the next

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slide please. So this is according to section one of the act it transfers an assignment mortgage

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exclusive license or any other conveyance of a copyright or any exclusive rights comprised

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in a copyright but not including non-exclusive license and I know it sounds like a mouthful

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but just to make it into an analogy that's understandable is basically as if I sell you

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my house if I sell you my house you have full rights and you have all the rights to that house

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and that is different from me giving you a non-exclusive license which is the analogy is I

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let you stay at my house and you could use my house for as long as I tell you that you could use

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my house and you maybe I could tell you that you can only go in the kitchen or I could you

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can only go in the room so I determine what kind of rights I give you with that not non-exclusivity

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and by the non-exclusivity part I mean that I could also let my brother come into the house or

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someone else come into the house so that's the difference between the full transfer so it does

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an assignment and a non-exclusive license. The next slide please. This is more for visual I think

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this is pretty kind of a simple way to kind of understand this transfers so you have the copyright

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and you transfer all the rights so this is again kind of similar to selling the whole house so I

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give you title to all and rights to the entire house I can't just come back to you later and say

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you know give me back my house that's basically what this means I have to give you this right in

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writing and I have to sign it um then you get all the same rights that you that I would get as if you

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were the owner from conception and you then we go into the next one so that's the license and then

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oh the previous one sorry yeah we'll go into the next bucket for a previous slide please yeah

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so license then we have um the exclusive or the non-exclusive for the exclusive part

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it's very similar to an assignment right except you also need it in writing you I will also have

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to give these rights to you by signature and I have to sign them away to you and you only get this

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rights uh it's an exclusive user so I can't give these rights to anyone else that is different from

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a non-exclusive so you wouldn't be special in other words to get these rights to uh in the analogy

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to borrow my house or to go into my house and this could be oral or implied also and we'll go into

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the definitions of those uh in the next slide now the next slide please thank you um so there's a lot

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of issues with the license in the entity space uh because I don't think we have a pretty clear

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understanding of what the law is surrounding or surrounding these licenses so exclusive licenses

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actually terminate at the earlier of one of those two years so 35 years from a date of publication

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or 40 years from the time that you grant these rights um and the time of publication it again this

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this may seem like uh it doesn't make it makes no sense but you could have a copyright registration

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in unpublished works so um you may be able to have rights that you granted prior to publication

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so that's how that would make sense so we also have the non-exclusive licenses so these are also

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but you could have it in writing or verbally give these licenses for the most part they're

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writing and they have a variety of termination procedures and that will be explained in the

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actual licensing and license agreement that you grant and then you have an implied non-exclusive

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license that could be terminable at will so whenever the person that granted them decides

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and that is there's an exception to this and if you have an implied non-exclusive license

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and this comes about in projects where there was no grant or so no mention of what kind of license

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you got and you got an implied quote unquote license and um then it could be argued that

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you paid consideration that was enough for the license to not be revocable otherwise it would

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be revocable so like if you see the terms of use where it says you know this could be revoked

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at any time basically that's what that means but for the implied one where there is no writing no

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mention of what you actually received when it was just implied based on conduct or you using the

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license and them allowing it if you had enough consideration the court will look at this consideration

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as enough uh sort of like detrimental reliance so you relied on the what you've been using this

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license for and then it becomes irrevocable, so there are some exceptions that I think will be

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important to note and and I know it's just kind of a very dense area of law so and I'm probably going

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really fast but just important to for us to note that there are exceptions to determination and those

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are transfers by will so by uh testament one someone passes away by works for hire the works

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made for hire because essentially your the creator is the the creator is not the owner anymore

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but the employer or whoever hired at that point he has those right now and then the grants by

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other federal laws so for example like you have at a batman that had that was granted a license

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to someone else in that batman use so like the actual character also had some trademarks in it

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so if there were trademarks embedded into the use of that copyright then you can't terminate

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that because then you know what will happen to those trademarks that were also granted under

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that specific license so that's when that really often happens and then also under foreign laws

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which we will not go into but that's also another exception worth noting and then we'll go into

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derivative works and you have the authority to continue using the whatever you created so it

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basically works like a layer so anything that you prepare under the grant or so under whatever

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license you receive before the termination you continue to utilize that so like the layer so

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like once you have that whatever you built upon it you can continue to use after the termination

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but it doesn't extend to any rights after the termination so you cannot continue to continue

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to create more works based on the first layer that you initially received once it is terminated

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we'll go into the next slide please then we get to the uh the fund part and this is the

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NFT licenses and i think for this part point 65 tonight it's going to join me because i think

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we'll get into more of the very uh dicey discussions in this area

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so we could go into the next slide all right hello hello hello could you hear me

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okay loud and clear well first of all thank you so much for that i know for everyone this was

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probably a lot to absorb if this is not something that you've thought about in detail before in

391
0:42:56.620 --> 0:43:01.420
fact even for me when i was looking at the materials and i think i know a decent amount

392
0:43:01.420 --> 0:43:07.180
about this topic there were things i had to ask clarifying questions uh i had to read the slides

393
0:43:07.180 --> 0:43:11.660
a few times the good thing is the slides are going to be available uh we will be available

394
0:43:11.660 --> 0:43:17.100
in the chat we'll be available on Twitter and so we'll be able to follow up on these things

395
0:43:17.660 --> 0:43:23.820
i would also say i think we're just going to have to run over of the one hour i mean i don't

396
0:43:23.820 --> 0:43:29.020
think we'll be done in the next 15 minutes we're just getting to the juicy parts i hope all of

397
0:43:29.020 --> 0:43:33.580
you can stay if you can't it's okay it'll be recorded you can watch the rest of it later

398
0:43:33.580 --> 0:43:38.060
but i don't want to cut it short because i think we have a lot of fun things to discuss

399
0:43:38.060 --> 0:43:46.220
let me put some things in my words from a more NFT perspective

400
0:43:47.100 --> 0:43:53.980
and only if i get anything wrong you should interrupt me and then we'll see where the

401
0:43:53.980 --> 0:44:00.780
really pressure points are i think this is a good slide here this slide 29 and on the slide

402
0:44:00.780 --> 0:44:09.580
that we're on let's go back the base model when you buy an nft is exactly the same as if you buy

403
0:44:09.580 --> 0:44:16.220
a traditional piece of art and i see this being an area of endless confusion particularly by

404
0:44:16.220 --> 0:44:21.900
non-NFT people right like they say oh well what rights do you have or your rights are unclear

405
0:44:21.900 --> 0:44:27.260
or here are all these like extremely nuanced topics about what rights you might have to the IP

406
0:44:27.260 --> 0:44:36.060
but of course off-chain pre-NFTs your default expectation if you bought a painting if you

407
0:44:36.060 --> 0:44:42.540
bought a book if you bought a cd if you bought a movie if you bought any piece of art or medium

408
0:44:42.540 --> 0:44:47.260
the default expectation is that you get no rights whatsoever you have a right to personal use

409
0:44:47.260 --> 0:44:54.620
the copyright stays with the owner so if you know i famously bought an Andy Warhol tomato soup can

410
0:44:54.620 --> 0:45:00.460
does not mean i am now the copyright owner of Andy Warhol soup cans and i'm going to make

411
0:45:00.460 --> 0:45:08.060
t-shirts and pillows and posters the Andy Warhol estate owns the copyrights there you know if

412
0:45:08.060 --> 0:45:13.180
you bought a Harry Potter book it does not mean you now own the Harry Potter franchise right you

413
0:45:13.180 --> 0:45:20.860
have a license you can read it yourself and most NFTs in the generative art world in the one of one

414
0:45:20.860 --> 0:45:28.300
world are sold under this model right your default expectation is if you have not heard otherwise

415
0:45:29.260 --> 0:45:33.100
if there's not been something communicated otherwise if there's not terms and conditions

416
0:45:33.100 --> 0:45:39.820
otherwise what you should expect you have is the right to that particular instance for your personal

417
0:45:39.820 --> 0:45:45.340
use but no the IP of the creator has not been transferred to you so your default is exactly

418
0:45:45.340 --> 0:45:51.820
the same and all of the interesting topics all of the ones where i think people are confused and

419
0:45:52.380 --> 0:45:59.820
we're leaving seeing some challenging legal issues as the law is not yet adapted to an on-chain world

420
0:46:00.460 --> 0:46:07.260
is where nft creators have tried to give more rights right things that you wouldn't actually

421
0:46:07.260 --> 0:46:13.020
typically see off-chain and let's take a look at some of those let's go to the next page

422
0:46:13.020 --> 0:46:22.140
oh yeah i guess i should address this before we get to that you know i think related to this

423
0:46:23.100 --> 0:46:28.380
and i've spent a lot of time with this oddly i've spent time on this topic even with people

424
0:46:28.380 --> 0:46:36.620
who are crypto native and they say well i mean sure you have the token but the jpeg as we saw

425
0:46:36.620 --> 0:46:45.340
last week might be on ipfs or our Arwave on a server and i can download it all by myself

426
0:46:47.020 --> 0:46:54.620
and of course the correct answer this is so what you can download i can go download the google logo

427
0:46:54.620 --> 0:47:00.220
all by myself i can right click save as the google logo and then the google logo is on my desktop

428
0:47:00.220 --> 0:47:07.660
and that means quite literally absolutely nothing right it does not make me the owner of the google

429
0:47:07.660 --> 0:47:14.780
logo it does not make me the owner of google uh Larry and Sergi are not trembling in their seats

430
0:47:14.780 --> 0:47:19.580
that i've right click saved their logo it means absolutely nothing right and this is the correct

431
0:47:19.580 --> 0:47:23.900
the actual practical correct analysis so i could say why does it doesn't mean anything i mean

432
0:47:23.900 --> 0:47:28.540
strictly speaking if i started using the google logo i'm probably violating someone's copy right

433
0:47:28.540 --> 0:47:37.020
so strictly speaking i might be breaking the law right but even that practically speaking it just

434
0:47:37.020 --> 0:47:43.020
doesn't matter and in an on-chain world where you know this was very common last year people would

435
0:47:43.020 --> 0:47:51.180
download punk 6529 and tweet at me and say i have punk 6529 now okay that's great i mean the tokens

436
0:47:51.180 --> 0:47:59.740
in my wallet you have a jpeg um it's clear who owns punk 6529 and if there's any doubt about this

437
0:47:59.740 --> 0:48:05.260
try and sell the jpeg right the market value for the right click saved as jpeg is zero so

438
0:48:06.060 --> 0:48:09.740
i want to address and i'm guessing half the audience three quarters of the audience

439
0:48:09.740 --> 0:48:13.740
has already passed us but we might have some new people in the audience new people to nfts

440
0:48:14.300 --> 0:48:20.460
it's a common stumbling block to people new in the space but it truly genuinely in my opinion

441
0:48:20.460 --> 0:48:24.220
and ellie if you have a different view we share it i just think it means literally absolutely

442
0:48:24.220 --> 0:48:37.660
nothing it's a non-issue agreed yeah okay let me skip this because it's

443
0:48:37.660 --> 0:48:42.940
actually fairly technical and we can come back and discuss this if we need to keep going

444
0:48:42.940 --> 0:48:54.620
okay let me let's talk about the punks because i think this is super super interesting and

445
0:48:55.340 --> 0:49:01.980
let's think about the two main frameworks that are might be different than the traditional

446
0:49:01.980 --> 0:49:08.700
framework are where people are trying to grant commercial rights along with the token

447
0:49:08.700 --> 0:49:15.420
or where people are saying we're putting the work in the public domain quote unquote cc0

448
0:49:15.420 --> 0:49:20.220
we'll come to that in the next section let's talk about commercial rights because in some ways

449
0:49:20.220 --> 0:49:24.620
this is the one that's most legally complicated you know the traditional model is not legally

450
0:49:24.620 --> 0:49:28.620
complicated the public domain model is actually not legally complicated it's well understood

451
0:49:29.260 --> 0:49:35.420
it's the licensing model that is legally complicated and the reason we have the

452
0:49:35.420 --> 0:49:43.740
crypto punks license here is that over the commercial licensing licenses i think it's

453
0:49:43.740 --> 0:49:50.300
the most well thought out it's the most complete uh you go clearly put a lot of work into it is

454
0:49:50.300 --> 0:49:56.220
certainly much more thought out than the board apes license and the mutant apes license which

455
0:49:56.220 --> 0:50:00.300
you know board apes license a couple paragraphs long and it's not totally clear what it's trying

456
0:50:00.300 --> 0:50:08.380
to say whereas the crypto punks license is clear what it says is if you have a crypto punks token

457
0:50:09.820 --> 0:50:18.700
you can commercially exploit your punk not of course anyone else's punk not any of the

458
0:50:18.700 --> 0:50:24.540
underlying elements in your punk right my punk has a hoodie i can't take a punk-style hoodie

459
0:50:24.540 --> 0:50:32.220
and exploit that individually i have to exploit punk 6529 specifically you can create derivative

460
0:50:32.220 --> 0:50:39.020
works you can have sub licensees you can even apply for a trademark for your punk not of course

461
0:50:39.020 --> 0:50:45.740
you can't use the general Yuga trademarks for crypto punks so it is as permissive as you can get

462
0:50:45.740 --> 0:50:53.740
for the actual owner of the token let's say that's bucket one bucket two there's been some thought

463
0:50:53.740 --> 0:51:01.180
into what happens if you sell the token further and what they say is if you've sub licensed

464
0:51:01.180 --> 0:51:07.340
or you've made derivatives and then you sell the token to the next person everything that you have

465
0:51:07.340 --> 0:51:16.860
done today holds but you can't do new things right so let's say i've made 10 000 little 6529 punks

466
0:51:16.860 --> 0:51:23.260
and then i sell my punk to Ellie i can still like sell off my inventory of little 6529 punks but i

467
0:51:23.260 --> 0:51:35.820
can't make a new derivative there's also some uh well let me stop there this is all this is to

468
0:51:35.820 --> 0:51:42.940
me all of the good news right now there's a couple of bad news from the perspective of

469
0:51:43.660 --> 0:51:48.860
you're fully crypto native you want to live on a blockchain right you know what's what's the bad

470
0:51:48.860 --> 0:51:55.180
news well the bad news here and i understand why it's there is since it's a license since you have

471
0:51:55.180 --> 0:52:00.940
an ongoing relationship with Yuga you see yuga like any kind of normal big American company

472
0:52:00.940 --> 0:52:07.260
then puts things in there like but we can terminate the license or you're not allowed to do certain

473
0:52:07.260 --> 0:52:12.940
things hate speech or trading with sanctioned entities or what have you say well why would you

474
0:52:12.940 --> 0:52:18.940
want to do anyway noone's going to do that deliberately right and into some level i believe

475
0:52:18.940 --> 0:52:26.380
it's Yuga covering their butts because you know they they don't want to indirectly be in business

476
0:52:26.380 --> 0:52:32.860
with a sanctioned entity but it's also moving a variety of obligations on a token holder

477
0:52:32.860 --> 0:52:39.500
but they don't have in if you own a bitcoin or an ether right it's not your bitcoin or ether can't

478
0:52:39.500 --> 0:52:47.340
be taken away if you use bitcoin to engage in speech that is not permissible in your country

479
0:52:47.340 --> 0:52:55.260
right but theoretically your license to your punk could be uh theoretically and it's different than

480
0:52:55.260 --> 0:53:01.740
you know certain applications that use bitcoin or ether have been sanctioned like tornado cash

481
0:53:01.740 --> 0:53:07.100
right but the protocol itself is not really sanctioned here if the protocol is the token it is

482
0:53:07.100 --> 0:53:14.060
is through the license there is a counterparty risk a centralization risk right that's i would say

483
0:53:14.060 --> 0:53:23.260
that's bucket one bucket two which i get i understand why it's there the license has a

484
0:53:23.260 --> 0:53:29.420
general term there says it can be changed i know why it's there because it's a brand new space

485
0:53:29.420 --> 0:53:35.820
and the laws might change and they might need to adapt the license to new laws so it's a sensible

486
0:53:35.820 --> 0:53:45.020
and logical thing to do and i have every view that Yuga has good faith here and their general

487
0:53:45.020 --> 0:53:49.420
model is to assign the commercial rights to the users but strictly speaking the license

488
0:53:49.420 --> 0:53:55.020
doesn't can change to mark change and say something different than what it says there and then the

489
0:53:55.020 --> 0:54:01.100
third thing that this was something i learned through the preparation of this of this session

490
0:54:01.100 --> 0:54:04.220
and this i want to ask Ellie if i understood it right i might have gotten it wrong in which case

491
0:54:04.220 --> 0:54:09.820
it'll be good to be corrected i had previously known to transferring a copyright

492
0:54:10.700 --> 0:54:14.380
required a written agreement and there's a whole bunch of consternation of if a

493
0:54:15.100 --> 0:54:19.020
you know on-chain transaction is a written agreement right of course as an intestine it's

494
0:54:19.020 --> 0:54:25.660
probably not um but then what i saw is that an exclusive license also requires a written agreement

495
0:54:25.660 --> 0:54:31.660
to be transferred and i think this license is primarily an exclusive license as it relates

496
0:54:31.660 --> 0:54:38.780
to 6529 it's not no it's it's non-exclusive it it will be a non-exclusive license

497
0:54:39.980 --> 0:54:47.180
why would that be so do you want to go back to the i think they do mention that at some point

498
0:54:47.180 --> 0:54:53.980
in the terms that it's a non-exclusive worldwide license it's not exclusive um otherwise it would

499
0:54:53.980 --> 0:54:59.980
literally say it this is an exclusive license so basically just one part you as a person would

500
0:54:59.980 --> 0:55:04.460
get it and if i'm not mistaken i know we had one side where you had like the full terms

501
0:55:05.180 --> 0:55:11.820
but it says it's a non-exclusive um license but that one yeah it would have to be in writing as well

502
0:55:11.820 --> 0:55:18.140
and i guess going back to your point i this has not been tested in court yet but there are some

503
0:55:18.140 --> 0:55:22.620
arguments that you can make that some licenses maybe when you guys intentionally say that you

504
0:55:22.620 --> 0:55:26.780
know i give you all rights i give you a commercial rights but then it gives you all this other kind

505
0:55:26.780 --> 0:55:31.820
of like as long as you buy to this and kind of alludes to a it is a license instead of just an

506
0:55:31.820 --> 0:55:37.820
assignment on rights um and it hasn't been tested in court whether you just transferring the token

507
0:55:37.820 --> 0:55:43.420
itself in connection to this license it's it's enough to have a cryptographic signature that

508
0:55:43.420 --> 0:55:48.700
is in writing enough for you to have agreed upon this but again none of this has been tested in

509
0:55:48.700 --> 0:55:54.460
this kind of it's it's a second issue that will deal with the subsequent buyer with that

510
0:55:54.460 --> 0:55:59.580
even that license the initial license is even enforceable against the the next buyer the

511
0:55:59.580 --> 0:56:03.980
so person a and person b so whether you could enforce that gets the person b but going back

512
0:56:03.980 --> 0:56:11.820
to your point yeah i think that um it is a non-exclusive license and so i i pulled it up it's

513
0:56:11.820 --> 0:56:17.420
actually very funny so they say it's exclusive and they also say this is the funny part is

514
0:56:17.420 --> 0:56:23.180
universe wide i don't know how that jurisdiction works universe wide so it says yeah an exclusive

515
0:56:23.180 --> 0:56:27.900
universe wide royalty free something some license of a license to reproduce a shipment

516
0:56:27.900 --> 0:56:32.380
prepared derivative works publicly display publicly perform transmit and otherwise exploit

517
0:56:32.380 --> 0:56:39.100
your cryptopunk art is that the most reason one the previous one may have uh i know that they have

518
0:56:39.100 --> 0:56:43.740
for example like not you got that state non-exclusive in this one i don't know if you

519
0:56:43.740 --> 0:56:49.260
i'll pull it up too i know we have the link there but if it's exclusive it has to be writing so um

520
0:56:49.260 --> 0:56:53.980
that would imply that you had that this will be sufficient enough and normally you have like to

521
0:56:53.980 --> 0:56:59.500
ascend something so like you have to click that you do agree to this right um that was sufficient

522
0:56:59.500 --> 0:57:04.700
writing um but that would imply that during the minting process you would have had to agree

523
0:57:04.700 --> 0:57:09.420
and then this goes back to many issues that have not been tested because this this was uh again this

524
0:57:09.420 --> 0:57:13.980
was amended so we don't even know if this could be enforceable or there could be an argument that

525
0:57:13.980 --> 0:57:20.940
it's not enforceable against it the people who bought in post amendments so this has not been

526
0:57:20.940 --> 0:57:26.860
tested yet in court there's no precedent for this one yet right so and i think this goes to a very

527
0:57:26.860 --> 0:57:31.980
interesting point like regardless of what it specifically says right and the Bored Apes

528
0:57:31.980 --> 0:57:39.100
license for sure was trying to transfer the copy copyright right and here are things as far as i

529
0:57:39.100 --> 0:57:50.860
can tell have not been tested or it's unclear. Number one) if you are a secondary buyer which could be on

530
0:57:52.620 --> 0:57:57.900
a normal marketplace or an exchange or in some type of smart contract or even peer to peer

531
0:57:59.340 --> 0:58:05.740
are you bound by the license and how right and you've never actually accepted that license

532
0:58:05.740 --> 0:58:10.700
that's number one. Number two) if someone is trying to transfer copyright or an exclusive license

533
0:58:12.300 --> 0:58:23.980
even if you have a terms and conditions at the bottom does this qualify as a written agreement

534
0:58:25.900 --> 0:58:31.260
Number three) the marketplace terms the support i wanted to skip over before because i think it's very

535
0:58:31.260 --> 0:58:37.260
complicated the marketplace terms tend to be generic right so most of the volume happens in

536
0:58:37.260 --> 0:58:42.460
open sea right on open not for punks but for everything else open sea has fairly generic

537
0:58:42.460 --> 0:58:47.020
terms it does not pass through the terms of every single collection and so to the degree you're

538
0:58:47.820 --> 0:58:51.500
click accepting something an open sea you're accepting the generic open sea terms not the

539
0:58:51.500 --> 0:59:00.780
collection specific terms and so arguably all of this stuff is open to interpretation challenge

540
0:59:00.780 --> 0:59:05.740
or it applies in the first place right and i think some of the people who are negative on this are

541
0:59:05.740 --> 0:59:13.660
like well it's it's bad but i'll give you my counter argument here and this is again i'd love

542
0:59:13.660 --> 0:59:20.860
your view on this and one is a practical one one another one is a future one a practical one

543
0:59:23.340 --> 0:59:29.660
let's say it doesn't apply right but Yuga intends genuinely i'm a hundred percent

544
0:59:29.660 --> 0:59:36.540
certain of this it wants its community to do projects with their IP that's the whole point

545
0:59:36.540 --> 0:59:40.940
of things right they're trying to get 10 000 people working to promote the collection as

546
0:59:40.940 --> 0:59:48.220
opposed to just a centralized team so to the degree that the buyer more or less acts like its

547
0:59:49.900 --> 0:59:56.940
applies and the seller or the issuer acts like it supplies doesn't matter i mean like if who's going to

548
0:59:56.940 --> 1:00:05.260
who if generally your concern would be as a buyer of one of these things that the issuer

549
1:00:05.260 --> 1:00:11.580
will enforce against you so i don't want you using your punk this way right i don't want you

550
1:00:11.580 --> 1:00:16.940
making pillows pillowcases with your punk but yuga very clearly does want you to make pillowcases

551
1:00:16.940 --> 1:00:21.260
with your punk or beer with your punk or coffee brands with your punk that's exactly what they

552
1:00:21.260 --> 1:00:28.300
want you to do right and so since they want you to do it where would the practical risks come

553
1:00:28.300 --> 1:00:35.180
that's that's question one and then question two is maybe what will happen is in time and

554
1:00:35.180 --> 1:00:40.540
i don't think it's imminent but maybe in the next three to five years we will have legislation

555
1:00:40.540 --> 1:00:46.540
to cover topics like this and the analogy that comes to mind for me is there used to be this

556
1:00:46.540 --> 1:00:53.420
debate in the 90s about electronic transactions and how can electronic transactions ever be valid

557
1:00:53.420 --> 1:00:58.860
because you have to sign with a pen and you can't sign with a pen on the internet right there's a

558
1:00:58.860 --> 1:01:02.700
lot of things that used to say you have to sign with a pen and then i think it was in 1996 the

559
1:01:02.700 --> 1:01:09.500
united states passed the e-signature act and the e-signature act in one stroke said well all those

560
1:01:09.500 --> 1:01:15.020
electronic transactions are fine they count exactly as much as if they were signed with a pen

561
1:01:15.020 --> 1:01:20.300
and this enabled a whole swath of e-commerce to come to life and you know this has been absolutely

562
1:01:20.300 --> 1:01:25.500
fine that's why we have e-commerce today and then i so i wondered even if there are issues

563
1:01:25.500 --> 1:01:33.340
now in this kind of teething period if eventually you know the legislation will change it was

564
1:01:33.340 --> 1:01:40.460
interesting that copyright office decision on the ai art you could tell they were uncomfortable

565
1:01:40.460 --> 1:01:45.580
with the decision they were making right they were just saying look we don't have the right

566
1:01:45.580 --> 1:01:52.860
to assign copyright to an ai this is congress's job to fix right like if like if congress wants

567
1:01:52.860 --> 1:01:56.220
to do this they should fix it and then we're happy to do it you could tell them they didn't feel

568
1:01:56.220 --> 1:01:59.820
comfortable saying all this work's not copyrightable we have to follow the letter of the law and the

569
1:01:59.820 --> 1:02:05.420
letter of the law says there needs to be human and if they want to cover you know human slash machine

570
1:02:05.420 --> 1:02:10.460
partnerships they should change the law and so what are your views on this like what's the practical

571
1:02:10.460 --> 1:02:15.660
risk today that even if this license is not a hundred percent correct enforceable etc what

572
1:02:15.660 --> 1:02:22.540
practical risk might a punk holder a board abe holder have and you know can you imagine the

573
1:02:22.540 --> 1:02:30.460
law changing in the future so i think that these are all unaddressed questions that i don't know

574
1:02:30.460 --> 1:02:35.420
that i don't know anyone that have the answers to i think the most important thing to know is that

575
1:02:36.380 --> 1:02:41.740
because this is so new I think that legally we need some changes but i also think

576
1:02:41.740 --> 1:02:47.340
technologically we need some changes and i say that because if you were able to transfer the token

577
1:02:47.340 --> 1:02:52.540
with a license that was available and that required someone to accept the license upon

578
1:02:52.540 --> 1:02:58.620
each transfer and this was abided by all platforms we would solve a lot of issues with that because

579
1:02:58.620 --> 1:03:06.140
then people would have the privity of contract with each one each transaction so i think that

580
1:03:06.140 --> 1:03:14.460
is not just legal but also technologically we need to mature and as far as risk goes i i think

581
1:03:14.460 --> 1:03:21.260
until we see some more kind of issues with this space we we don't know i would say this is a

582
1:03:21.260 --> 1:03:28.620
litigious question as far as who would want to bring any sort of issues regarding this licenses

583
1:03:28.620 --> 1:03:35.260
and their enforceability that would be the risk is is why would anyone want to contest this and

584
1:03:35.260 --> 1:03:41.340
again i think most of the issues that i have in this space is not just legal questions

585
1:03:41.340 --> 1:03:46.780
but that technological feature and then some of the misunderstandings as far as the amendment

586
1:03:46.780 --> 1:03:54.060
goes so like what how do we know which license applies if this is amendable at any point so

587
1:03:54.060 --> 1:03:59.180
like let's say that they're amended multiple times they say let's say Yuga lab decides to amend it

588
1:03:59.180 --> 1:04:05.900
three four five times upon this and in the next five years so then at what point do we know which

589
1:04:05.900 --> 1:04:11.180
license apply to whom and was there any privity of contract to say okay this license number three

590
1:04:11.180 --> 1:04:19.180
apply to buyer five or buyer six or buyer six hundred um so yeah i would say um that technologically

591
1:04:19.180 --> 1:04:24.460
we could fix this and then uh the law would definitely have to evolve with that technology

592
1:04:26.860 --> 1:04:33.660
amazing i i guess well they'll have to update the license on-chain so then you can see

593
1:04:33.660 --> 1:04:40.460
which license applies to which to which to which user right yeah i mean yeah and and i think that

594
1:04:40.460 --> 1:04:45.100
technologically we could solve a lot of things and if we if we if only the platforms would kind of

595
1:04:45.100 --> 1:04:49.740
like uh accept some of the smart contracts i know some some companies that are like trying to or

596
1:04:49.740 --> 1:04:54.060
some platforms that are trying to kind of have this where like you upon each transfer you're

597
1:04:54.060 --> 1:04:58.220
gonna have to click yes and be able to like read it so kind of like when we go on websites right now

598
1:04:58.220 --> 1:05:02.700
and accept the terms of use um so each buyer will have an actual understanding what they're

599
1:05:02.700 --> 1:05:08.860
purchasing and whether there's any encumbrances or liens or any sub-licensed um rights that have

600
1:05:08.860 --> 1:05:14.940
been passed to a different person i think that technologically we could solve the legal

601
1:05:14.940 --> 1:05:22.380
issues too. Oh I love what you were just describing i mean this would let me put it back in my

602
1:05:22.380 --> 1:05:31.660
words that technologically we could bring the terms and conditions and the sub-licenses and

603
1:05:31.660 --> 1:05:38.460
changes of these and things that were created under the sub-licenses and so on-chain and at

604
1:05:38.460 --> 1:05:45.100
that point you can contract around the number one but it only gets me excited and you can

605
1:05:45.100 --> 1:05:54.140
programmatically access them right and because right now i do feel this all the commercial

606
1:05:54.140 --> 1:06:01.900
rights type projects do have a foot in both worlds right you have this global instant

607
1:06:01.900 --> 1:06:09.340
digitally native permissionless token flying around everywhere and then for it to work this contract

608
1:06:09.340 --> 1:06:20.700
that literally on the cryptopunks site is a pdf right and so you're saying maybe we can develop

609
1:06:20.700 --> 1:06:29.260
better technology to bring the pdf side into the programmatic side i think so because right now we

610
1:06:29.260 --> 1:06:34.220
have three three kind of different layers and it's kind of like a sandwich where like you have like

611
1:06:34.220 --> 1:06:39.340
and it should not be it should not be for the legal perspective so like you're basically saying

612
1:06:39.340 --> 1:06:45.180
i sell you this house but someone else is hosting whatever rights i have and and that that's some

613
1:06:45.180 --> 1:06:51.660
that's somewhere else is normally like an aws or at the best an ipfs that holds those rights

614
1:06:51.660 --> 1:06:56.620
which is the terms of use that i'm mentioning so that should not live separate from the token

615
1:06:56.620 --> 1:07:02.060
and and if those were hand in hand together just like even we had just two layers where like the

616
1:07:02.060 --> 1:07:07.580
token itself has the rights but also the metadata was i think again i think the technology is to

617
1:07:07.580 --> 1:07:12.940
mature so that people could really readily like read that and be able to understand it because

618
1:07:12.940 --> 1:07:17.660
right now who's going to go into the ether scan and go through the metadata and and click on links

619
1:07:17.660 --> 1:07:23.260
or be able to know where to go in the metadata to click on the link that kind of takes you to the

620
1:07:23.260 --> 1:07:28.620
to the terms of use like it's a lot of steps that i don't think people are going to if a judge saw it

621
1:07:28.620 --> 1:07:33.500
they may see you know there was no actual understanding or knowledge or a sense um through

622
1:07:33.500 --> 1:07:37.180
the terms of use because nobody's going to go through this metadata process

623
1:07:39.340 --> 1:07:45.420
that makes perfect sense okay let's go to cc0 and public domain let's skip forward a few slides

624
1:07:45.420 --> 1:07:58.780
and go to the next slide actually okay my sense of where we have ended up today in

625
1:08:00.060 --> 1:08:06.780
so-called cc0 so creative commons zero which is a form of license that tries as much as possible

626
1:08:07.420 --> 1:08:12.380
to put the copyrights in the public domain and the reason i say as much as possible in some

627
1:08:12.380 --> 1:08:17.180
countries there are certain rights that you cannot put in the public domain if you want to but

628
1:08:17.180 --> 1:08:21.980
for an american person i think you can generally you can put all your rights in the public domain

629
1:08:23.820 --> 1:08:31.260
i believe it's an alternative way to solve some of the issues we just spoke about i think that's

630
1:08:31.260 --> 1:08:36.140
how people are thinking of them let me give you my sense so because i've spoken to a lot of the

631
1:08:36.140 --> 1:08:46.460
folks who have done this right and their assessment of the solution is not, okay we have to agree on

632
1:08:46.460 --> 1:08:50.940
a standardized format for legal contracts in terms and conditions and we'll bring them on

633
1:08:50.940 --> 1:08:54.940
chains to coordinate all the exchanges and do all these things their view is all different they say

634
1:08:54.940 --> 1:08:59.740
okay well that sounds like an awful lot of work let's take a completely different approach first

635
1:08:59.740 --> 1:09:10.860
of all let's take the approach that encourages maximum virality right the attention drives

636
1:09:10.860 --> 1:09:18.540
everything online and if it is the case that having 10 000 people working on your further

637
1:09:18.540 --> 1:09:26.860
developing your ip is better than having the 10 people in your marketing team working on your ip

638
1:09:26.860 --> 1:09:34.620
well it's even better to let the 2.3 billion people online further develop your ip and your ip

639
1:09:34.620 --> 1:09:38.460
will become more famous and important to get more attention if anyone can work on it so

640
1:09:38.460 --> 1:09:48.300
that's one theory i think the second theory is even if someone let's say you 6529 have the

641
1:09:48.300 --> 1:09:54.380
rights to punk 6529 and let's say you had a kind of strict view of how only you wanted to

642
1:09:54.380 --> 1:10:01.100
to develop it and if someone else started doing things with your punk you should chase them around

643
1:10:01.100 --> 1:10:07.420
and legally i think part of saying like look this is chasing people around legally online

644
1:10:07.420 --> 1:10:13.820
in 99.999 of cases it's not worth the effort anyway right like i mean it's people copy things all the

645
1:10:13.820 --> 1:10:20.300
time online and mostly you don't bother chasing them around and say like look it's it's effectively

646
1:10:20.300 --> 1:10:26.780
it might be legally enforceable but it might be practically not hugely enforceable so i

647
1:10:26.780 --> 1:10:31.580
don't want to have to even think about that let's say point number two point number three of

648
1:10:31.580 --> 1:10:39.100
this this was x copies point that any version of trying to do it through a licensing agreement

649
1:10:39.100 --> 1:10:44.940
is going to lead to centralization there is always going to be a counterparty the counterparty is

650
1:10:44.940 --> 1:10:52.860
always going to want things like oh i need the right to change this agreement for logical reasons

651
1:10:52.860 --> 1:10:58.700
the laws might change and they might be required to change the agreement but nonetheless it's never

652
1:10:58.700 --> 1:11:06.460
the content the art is never really free because there's always a counterparty and a counterparty

653
1:11:06.460 --> 1:11:11.340
that in some ways has more power than you do right like that they can change the contract you can't

654
1:11:11.340 --> 1:11:20.780
right and so and then the biggest all these issues on is it enforceable is it not enforceable is it

655
1:11:20.780 --> 1:11:24.700
written transfer did it happen through an exchange did not happen through an exchange was it on mint

656
1:11:24.700 --> 1:11:29.500
which version applies take all away right you don't have to think about it's a huge simplification

657
1:11:29.500 --> 1:11:38.300
you don't have to worry about them at all right there's who can i own some public domain pfp some

658
1:11:38.300 --> 1:11:44.540
mfers for example and i don't have to think about these issues at all because it's clear who can

659
1:11:44.540 --> 1:11:50.220
use that art anyone right absolutely anyone the product of user i can also use it but so can anyone

660
1:11:50.220 --> 1:11:59.420
else so it simplifies and then i think what underlies all this all of this is the idea

661
1:12:00.860 --> 1:12:07.260
that i'm stealing now from punk 4156 and i think in a few days we'll have him on here on the

662
1:12:07.260 --> 1:12:12.860
course and so we'll really dig into this then he said something a long time ago that i found very

663
1:12:12.860 --> 1:12:20.780
interesting was the right mental model here is provenance not copyright and how i understood it

664
1:12:21.660 --> 1:12:28.460
is the following pre nfts let's say you had a really nice image and then it starts getting

665
1:12:28.460 --> 1:12:32.780
copied which happens all the time right you see an example here with cats some art happens all the

666
1:12:32.780 --> 1:12:39.020
time someone posts a beautiful photo on Instagram and then like 5 000 people copyright they posted

667
1:12:39.020 --> 1:12:43.100
themselves they don't attribute it and now you don't know which one's the original because

668
1:12:43.100 --> 1:12:49.420
everyone's supposed to get everywhere this doesn't really apply in NFTs right like the

669
1:12:49.420 --> 1:12:59.820
provenance of who actually minted it who owns it who the artist said owns it what who the artist

670
1:12:59.820 --> 1:13:07.260
recognizes as the owner it's super clear it's the person with the token to the degree that there's

671
1:13:07.260 --> 1:13:14.540
a person with a token then everyone else that's running around with the art is in a way some

672
1:13:14.540 --> 1:13:20.860
form of right click saving us right now or to think of it a more positive light is driving value back

673
1:13:20.860 --> 1:13:24.460
to the token holder right they're creating attention but they're still only one original yes

674
1:13:24.460 --> 1:13:31.980
they can use it but there's only one original now here we're in completely simultaneously

675
1:13:31.980 --> 1:13:37.820
completely untested waters and extremely tested waters why do i say extremely tested waters

676
1:13:38.780 --> 1:13:45.340
the vast you open an art history book the vast majority of art in an art history book anything

677
1:13:45.340 --> 1:13:53.340
before 1924 is that the right state is in the public domain so it's not like this is something

678
1:13:53.340 --> 1:14:00.060
brand new to the world you know any Van Gogh is in the public domain right uh books from the 18th

679
1:14:00.060 --> 1:14:05.980
century in the public domain all these things are in the public domain right Romeo and Juliet are in

680
1:14:05.980 --> 1:14:11.740
the public domain right they've been in the public domain for a long time now and so what an artist

681
1:14:11.740 --> 1:14:16.700
or creator is doing is accelerating that process and we're not going to wait until my death plus

682
1:14:16.700 --> 1:14:21.820
x years we're going to put in the public domain now this is what i'm going to respect as the

683
1:14:21.820 --> 1:14:33.900
originals and then the global culture can remix this uh together and so it strikes me and i'm going to

684
1:14:33.900 --> 1:14:40.780
ask a narrow question that will go to the economic question from a legal perspective this one seems

685
1:14:40.780 --> 1:14:47.900
straightforward right like there's not a ton of outstanding issues if let's say i'm an American

686
1:14:47.900 --> 1:14:55.500
i create a piece of art i put it in the public domain are there any ambiguities can we just go

687
1:14:55.500 --> 1:15:02.620
ahead and treat it as such i wouldn't say there's ambiguities i would just say there's lack of

688
1:15:02.620 --> 1:15:10.860
control for the creators so like let's say that um there's you have that cco like copyright uh or

689
1:15:10.860 --> 1:15:17.340
lack of copyright rather image and then someone starts using it with the regulatory political

690
1:15:17.340 --> 1:15:23.580
campaigns then there will be no control over you kind of having any say to prevent any of those

691
1:15:23.580 --> 1:15:30.380
associations from happening um that will be the only kind of negative that i would say um but i do

692
1:15:31.260 --> 1:15:37.260
i do understand the moombas kind of uh did this and i think that they have other issues other than

693
1:15:37.260 --> 1:15:40.940
they just issuing this i think they should have done this for the beginning without the intent

694
1:15:40.940 --> 1:15:49.660
but um i think the that would be um it's easier to manage you they wouldn't have to kind of legally

695
1:15:49.660 --> 1:15:57.980
enforce any rights uh for on behalf of any holders either so financially and legally it would make

696
1:15:57.980 --> 1:16:03.100
sense for them to do that but they only again they only get negative to it is the lack of control

697
1:16:03.100 --> 1:16:08.060
or associations that you may not want with your art so that would be the negative thing i would say

698
1:16:08.060 --> 1:16:13.500
about that sure right but legally it's clear right it might operationally have the outside

699
1:16:14.300 --> 1:16:17.820
it's clear all right let's let's see the next few slides

700
1:16:20.220 --> 1:16:27.260
yeah so this is this is where i think we are today in pfp projects my sense is in pfp projects

701
1:16:29.020 --> 1:16:35.420
the whole quote unquote game now is being played between commercial licenses and cco licenses

702
1:16:35.420 --> 1:16:41.580
is releasing a pfp project today and saying you just have a personal use license only

703
1:16:42.220 --> 1:16:47.980
is probably now market uncompetitive right and for pfp projects which are different than

704
1:16:48.940 --> 1:16:57.020
art oriented NFTs i think what we'll play out here and i don't know the answer to this right

705
1:16:57.020 --> 1:17:04.620
and we're going to just have to wait and see which of the following two factors is going to

706
1:17:04.620 --> 1:17:13.340
end up being more powerful the case for commercial licenses is if i know i have the exclusive license

707
1:17:13.340 --> 1:17:20.780
for that board eight that's one of my Bored Apes i might be willing to invest in it because i know

708
1:17:20.780 --> 1:17:28.700
i can monetize it if i invest it and if i knew that even if i invested it you could just take it

709
1:17:28.700 --> 1:17:33.260
and use it yourself they may be less willing to invest it right that's the case for commercial

710
1:17:33.260 --> 1:17:39.900
rights the again the economic human behavior case let's say and on the public domain side the flip

711
1:17:39.900 --> 1:17:46.220
side will be like well sure that everything you said is true but in practice most people won't

712
1:17:47.420 --> 1:17:52.300
manage to do very much with these things themselves and when you enable the whole world

713
1:17:53.020 --> 1:17:57.340
to help you you'll actually get further i another way of saying it is

714
1:17:57.340 --> 1:18:04.460
is i think the public domain folks will say yes you'll get a smaller percentage of a much bigger

715
1:18:04.460 --> 1:18:09.660
pie right the value that's going to somehow accrue to you the token holder in sort of ambiguous

716
1:18:09.660 --> 1:18:17.420
ways today right it's not totally clear that like let's say you le take my cryptotodes and make a

717
1:18:17.420 --> 1:18:22.700
super successful clothing line with it you don't owe me anything right you could make lots of money

718
1:18:22.700 --> 1:18:29.100
with it and i'll be like oh yes but i'm gaining influence and attention on the original but

719
1:18:29.100 --> 1:18:33.580
i mean it's unclear if that actually ever converts back to money to me that's the question but

720
1:18:33.580 --> 1:18:36.860
conceptually i think it's this they're saying the pie is going to be bigger

721
1:18:38.540 --> 1:18:42.780
your take rate of the pie is going to be smaller but somehow it's going to be more

722
1:18:42.780 --> 1:18:47.020
than on the other one that most people on most days are not actually going to

723
1:18:47.020 --> 1:18:53.900
successfully manage to monetize a PFPs anyway so my sense it's an economic sense not a legal sense

724
1:18:53.900 --> 1:18:59.500
is this is where we are in PFPs and now a collection comes out you can't do anything

725
1:18:59.500 --> 1:19:03.740
you have to wait for the centralized company to do all the work of promoting it driving

726
1:19:03.740 --> 1:19:12.060
attention etc i think is going to be uncompetitive for a new pfp collection now if marvel comes and

727
1:19:12.060 --> 1:19:17.340
sells you PFPs right and spider-man and four and what have you that might be different right because

728
1:19:17.340 --> 1:19:21.660
those are while established brands are ready but for a new brand that needs to be established my

729
1:19:21.660 --> 1:19:28.300
guess is is when we're in the latter two categories now any thoughts there are we on yeah can i add

730
1:19:28.300 --> 1:19:34.380
something yeah just I see one of the issues that i would see in that in that model is that

731
1:19:34.380 --> 1:19:38.860
let's say you have something on the public domain like uh you know i don't know maybe a member and

732
1:19:38.860 --> 1:19:43.900
someone else starts using it who's not the token holder and then they end up making it into a really

733
1:19:43.900 --> 1:19:49.340
large brand to a point that it becomes a using in commerce that could be trademarked and then they

734
1:19:49.340 --> 1:19:55.020
later on trademark that specific Moonbird as their trademark and then you still have that token so

735
1:19:55.020 --> 1:20:02.780
like and again this is on the waters but wouldn't what would be your opinion as to someone else kind

736
1:20:02.780 --> 1:20:09.660
of monetizing that potentially for in perpetuity until they choose not to and there's really no

737
1:20:09.660 --> 1:20:14.060
what will be the value for the holder at that point if any at all when someone else is kind

738
1:20:14.060 --> 1:20:19.820
of claiming cop trademark not copyright but trademark rights or that Moonbird that was initially

739
1:20:19.820 --> 1:20:25.900
in this in the public domain that that would be a concern of mine but what would you do in that

740
1:20:25.900 --> 1:20:31.260
case now i think that's a very interesting topic i think these topics you know you've seen this with

741
1:20:31.260 --> 1:20:37.020
some open source projects where the project itself is released under an MIT license or something

742
1:20:37.020 --> 1:20:43.180
but the trademark is still centrally held right where and there's some type of process for

743
1:20:46.140 --> 1:20:50.940
applying to use the trademark i think is a complicated one and it's a very good point

744
1:20:50.940 --> 1:20:57.020
i don't think there's a straightforward answer. yeah those are one of the issues i see. yeah

745
1:20:57.020 --> 1:21:02.780
all right let's see two more examples and i think then we can go to questions and i'm seeing a ton

746
1:21:02.780 --> 1:21:07.820
of questions coming through the chat we need to give people a chance to get their questions answered

747
1:21:08.780 --> 1:21:19.420
so in the one of one world this photo here from Gatsomart was i think the most seminal part of

748
1:21:19.420 --> 1:21:23.500
thinking about cc0 in the one of one world it's a great story she was an established

749
1:21:23.500 --> 1:21:31.100
photographer pre-nfts and this was one of her most famous images and it was constantly stolen

750
1:21:31.820 --> 1:21:38.540
right she'd see it on travel blogs and Instagram accounts and people used them on their advertisements

751
1:21:38.540 --> 1:21:43.020
never credited her never paid her and this is nothing new than fts right in the off-chain world

752
1:21:44.300 --> 1:21:50.140
and then she said well let me take a different approach and said well i'm going to auction it

753
1:21:50.140 --> 1:21:56.300
off and i think she had a reserve price of a hundred or something and as soon as it's bought

754
1:21:57.260 --> 1:22:01.980
it's going to convert to a public domain license now not strictly speaking of cc0 in her case

755
1:22:01.980 --> 1:22:07.580
she kept some provisions on hate speech i think and acceptable use in her license but effectively

756
1:22:07.580 --> 1:22:16.700
a public domain license and G-money was a big collector bought it and this was a very um interesting

757
1:22:16.700 --> 1:22:23.900
event because i suspect she monetized this piece more without underneath and her whole prior off-chain

758
1:22:23.900 --> 1:22:29.980
history of that piece and now it is of course continued to be used by many other people and

759
1:22:31.020 --> 1:22:34.940
but now she feels okay about it because she might not and i think she money feels okay about it

760
1:22:34.940 --> 1:22:39.980
because it becomes a very it's become a very well-known piece of photography because a lot of

761
1:22:39.980 --> 1:22:45.100
people now make derivatives of it and it was interesting because somehow and i'm not saying

762
1:22:45.100 --> 1:22:49.260
this applies to most people in most photography right doesn't mean that if you put your image in

763
1:22:49.260 --> 1:22:53.260
the public domain you're going to get a hundred each that supply and demand doesn't work that way

764
1:22:53.260 --> 1:22:58.460
but if you're a famous photographer and have a famous image it didn't work out this way and i

765
1:22:58.460 --> 1:23:05.180
thought this was a very interesting and creative approach indifferent than the type of dynamics

766
1:23:05.180 --> 1:23:11.420
that exist in pfps right nothing about this was G-money paid a hundred each because he wants to

767
1:23:11.420 --> 1:23:18.460
make t-shirts with this picture he wants this picture from an art perspective in the same way

768
1:23:18.460 --> 1:23:25.260
that he would buy any other one of one piece but believes that the whole overall system around

769
1:23:25.260 --> 1:23:31.500
this photograph is going to drive attention over time and therefore value so i thought this was

770
1:23:31.500 --> 1:23:38.780
very interesting a semi-controversial last fall 2021 and i think now it's been established

771
1:23:38.780 --> 1:23:44.140
that like you know some photographers release some pieces of the public domain and i'm not saying

772
1:23:44.140 --> 1:23:50.460
it's right or wrong it's just a tool right most release them not under a cc0 license and that's

773
1:23:50.460 --> 1:23:57.500
fine but i think it is a tool that artists have that they can think about and use creatively right

774
1:23:57.500 --> 1:24:09.500
and not just in a PFP context and let's see one more slide on this which is x copy. The x copy is

775
1:24:09.500 --> 1:24:19.980
very interesting because he is not just a leading crypto artist he's on most metrics among the very

776
1:24:19.980 --> 1:24:26.220
very top right and when he started and how many pieces of work he's made and what the prices of

777
1:24:26.220 --> 1:24:32.780
his art he's on a quantitative basis at the very very top i think he's amazing but that's just a

778
1:24:32.780 --> 1:24:43.420
personal view i say quantitative he's at the very very top and he has a large collection of work

779
1:24:45.260 --> 1:24:50.380
and then one day the summer he put all of it in the public domain and what's very interesting and

780
1:24:50.380 --> 1:24:54.220
this has to do with how crypto native he is and therefore also how crypto native his collectors

781
1:24:54.220 --> 1:24:58.860
are nobody complained and it's very interesting because this is different than the moon bird's

782
1:24:58.860 --> 1:25:03.180
discussion right moon bird said i'm going to give you commercial rights and then change

783
1:25:03.180 --> 1:25:07.340
which they're mine and said i actually want to put in the public domain and some people got

784
1:25:07.340 --> 1:25:11.420
annoyed but i understand that right because if you bought it because i want to have commercial

785
1:25:11.420 --> 1:25:16.060
rights and now i don't have commercial rights with x copy you never had any rights right you had a

786
1:25:16.060 --> 1:25:23.500
purse it was just normal art so you just had a personal license to use it you know i own summer

787
1:25:23.500 --> 1:25:28.220
dot jpeg but i couldn't do anything with summer dot jpeg i just could look at it really nice to

788
1:25:28.220 --> 1:25:34.300
look at and then the rights were still an x copy and he said okay well i don't want to hold them

789
1:25:34.300 --> 1:25:38.140
anymore i'm going to give them to the world at large interestingly i think the vast majority

790
1:25:38.140 --> 1:25:43.820
of his collectors you're just positive not a negative right now i see derivatives of summer

791
1:25:43.820 --> 1:25:52.780
dot jpeg everywhere and i think it's great and i appreciate the point that you say well what

792
1:25:52.780 --> 1:25:58.780
if people use it i mean what people say online is well what if Nazis' start using your art right

793
1:25:58.780 --> 1:26:06.460
like it's very common thing and i appreciate that in the fullness of time this will happen to some

794
1:26:06.460 --> 1:26:11.740
person and some collector and some artist but on the whole the kind of my first reaction to it you

795
1:26:11.740 --> 1:26:18.780
know most of human art histories in the public domain and nazis aren't going around using like

796
1:26:18.780 --> 1:26:27.820
Renoir's and Van Gogh's and Jane Austen i mean i don't think of nazis as being that art oriented

797
1:26:27.820 --> 1:26:31.980
to be totally honest they seem to be more busy doing more obnoxious things than like making

798
1:26:31.980 --> 1:26:38.620
derivatives of important art right so it's an issue but historically when we have data on what

799
1:26:38.620 --> 1:26:43.660
happens when art is in the public domain and how many times it's used for evil and you know generally

800
1:26:43.660 --> 1:26:50.780
the answer is it's not right it has not typically happened with historical art and so i thought these

801
1:26:50.780 --> 1:26:56.860
were interesting in that it's a very different discussion than the pfp licensing discussion

802
1:26:56.860 --> 1:27:02.860
where the PFP license of discussion is realistically mostly not about the art right nobody's buying

803
1:27:02.860 --> 1:27:07.980
most PFP collections because they think oh it's grail art they're buying the collections because

804
1:27:07.980 --> 1:27:15.260
they believe or hope a community can emerge around them and drive value and so in that context the

805
1:27:15.260 --> 1:27:20.300
licensing discussion is very tactically driven to what's going to encourage people to invest in

806
1:27:20.300 --> 1:27:27.420
the pieces whereas what we saw with kath and what we're seeing here with x copy is yes also cc0 but

807
1:27:27.420 --> 1:27:36.060
i think cc0 with a different mental model and framework any thoughts on this no I mean i like

808
1:27:36.060 --> 1:27:43.980
his art too so okay well with that we ran i think i don't i don't want to say we ran over we did an

809
1:27:43.980 --> 1:27:48.060
hour and a half and i think that that's what we needed to do this presentation if we had tried

810
1:27:48.060 --> 1:27:55.660
to do it an hour i don't think we could have done it so my suggestion is to be i have on my screen

811
1:27:55.660 --> 1:27:59.820
open the questions so i'm going to read the questions and i'm going to let you answer them

812
1:27:59.820 --> 1:28:05.260
because we have an expert from the uspto here i mean we need to take advantage of this

813
1:28:06.220 --> 1:28:11.500
i love this one this is great how can fedenza be trademarked when there is a town in a really

814
1:28:11.500 --> 1:28:17.980
called Fidenza how does the law work in that case um yeah so that's a great question so it would have

815
1:28:17.980 --> 1:28:24.060
to be geographically descriptive and because there's likely no connection or nexus for the

816
1:28:24.060 --> 1:28:31.580
actual trademark person or Tyler Hobss in this case um with the actual Fidenza in Italy it would

817
1:28:31.580 --> 1:28:35.740
not be descriptive of that specific place so there will have to be a nexus and evidence that

818
1:28:35.740 --> 1:28:39.980
the trademark is being used geographically descriptive in a geographically descriptive

819
1:28:39.980 --> 1:28:46.220
manner that the standard used so Fedenza so it's basically it's similar to kind of

820
1:28:46.220 --> 1:28:54.060
uh trademarking like a town that's very rural and remote for um computers what would be the nexus

821
1:28:54.060 --> 1:28:58.860
there so similarly that's that the way the trademark office would kind of read that um and

822
1:28:58.860 --> 1:29:05.180
they will have to find evidence that is geographically descriptive in that sense so this comes down

823
1:29:05.180 --> 1:29:09.180
to the issue of classes right you don't just get a trademark for everything you have to get a

824
1:29:09.180 --> 1:29:16.940
trademark for something specific and Fidenza the town is probably not making an if generative art

825
1:29:16.940 --> 1:29:22.220
NFTs and so there's no overlap there right is that yeah what do you think about it I think they

826
1:29:22.220 --> 1:29:26.700
yeah but they're also the easiest way to kind of understand trademarks is the likelihood of

827
1:29:26.700 --> 1:29:31.340
confusion and that's kind of what trademark says is to prevent consumer confusion in the

828
1:29:31.340 --> 1:29:37.580
marketplace in the in commerce so um someone basically the easiest way to understand is

829
1:29:37.580 --> 1:29:43.420
if you see Fidenza an NFT are you going to associate Fidenza the town in italy or are you

830
1:29:43.420 --> 1:29:47.820
going to just refer okay if somebody tells you hey did you buy that Fidenza you're not gonna

831
1:29:47.820 --> 1:29:52.540
associate it with that italy town you're gonna associate it with the NFT art right so that's

832
1:29:52.540 --> 1:29:57.980
that's the indicator kind of purpose of of trademarks and that wouldn't be geographically

833
1:29:57.980 --> 1:30:03.180
descriptive in that sense so it just is intended to prevent the consumer confusion and I don't know

834
1:30:03.180 --> 1:30:08.620
that Fedenza as the town will create any kind of like confusion and the consumers find that it's

835
1:30:08.620 --> 1:30:16.540
related to the actual town in Italy yep makes perfect sense okay next question how just would

836
1:30:16.540 --> 1:30:26.460
like to confirm that AI works at the moment are not protected under copyright law so no it's not

837
1:30:26.460 --> 1:30:33.820
tough it's just there's it's linguistic it's so basically creating a work of art with AI

838
1:30:34.460 --> 1:30:41.020
and you name the author the AI system so the author is not you as a human

839
1:30:41.020 --> 1:30:48.060
inputting some code some kind of basic layers into the system or a blender and then the output

840
1:30:48.060 --> 1:30:54.780
is you the owner but you're naming the author the actual machine that created this work so

841
1:30:54.780 --> 1:31:01.660
that's different than saying I used photoshop or I used blender or dally to create this specific

842
1:31:01.660 --> 1:31:07.900
work of art so during the examination process to get a registration and we've seen this being

843
1:31:07.900 --> 1:31:13.820
posted on Twitter lately they are they ask you questions they're going to ask you how did you

844
1:31:13.820 --> 1:31:19.260
use the system what did you input into the system and that's how you're going to determine this was

845
1:31:19.260 --> 1:31:24.460
mostly in again there's no clear line as to what they're using to determine what enough

846
1:31:24.460 --> 1:31:30.780
input for my human being is as opposed to just machine made um so that that's the difference

847
1:31:30.780 --> 1:31:36.860
is I'm naming the author the machine as opposed to naming me as the author in the creation output

848
1:31:36.860 --> 1:31:42.860
and it's me owning that output um ownership that that was created with the machine does that make

849
1:31:42.860 --> 1:31:51.180
sense I hope that that's clear it's it could be confusing. Right my takeaway is how you presented

850
1:31:51.180 --> 1:31:56.540
might also make a difference right if you go like that case that you mentioned say hey the AI did it

851
1:31:56.540 --> 1:32:01.740
registered on the AI you're gonna get a no right if you're gonna say yeah I did this but I used some

852
1:32:01.740 --> 1:32:08.380
tools to help me you might get a yes is that accurate yes yeah it does but it'll in in that

853
1:32:08.380 --> 1:32:14.460
process they're going to ask you how much of you how much input from the human being was there

854
1:32:14.460 --> 1:32:19.740
basically in using that that that machine but yes essentially that's how you present it it's going

855
1:32:19.740 --> 1:32:24.940
to make a difference and that there was an article recently on the uh I think it was a comic

856
1:32:24.940 --> 1:32:31.180
strip or a comic book that received a registration using a specific AI system they named themselves

857
1:32:31.180 --> 1:32:37.180
the human being as the author but they also specified they use midnight uh journey as the

858
1:32:37.180 --> 1:32:41.020
system that they utilize and during the process of dissemination they probably were asked how

859
1:32:41.020 --> 1:32:47.100
much input they put into into midnight in order to receive that output so that's how

860
1:32:47.100 --> 1:32:56.300
they receive that cover registration. Got it okay. Next question are all these topics considered

861
1:32:56.300 --> 1:33:01.260
similar across all jurisdictions do we need to register a trademark across all jurisdictions

862
1:33:02.620 --> 1:33:08.860
so when you have a for trademarks you will get a federal registration so that federal

863
1:33:08.860 --> 1:33:13.660
registration is basically saying you you have users in commerce across the state

864
1:33:13.660 --> 1:33:19.580
and um that gives you like a federal kind of protection and you don't have to register in a

865
1:33:19.580 --> 1:33:25.020
specific jurisdiction so like a state if that I'm not sure if they're asking international or

866
1:33:25.900 --> 1:33:30.860
national so within the US but within the US you could register it you know with each state but

867
1:33:30.860 --> 1:33:35.820
that's only going to protect you geographically in that area that that geographic area that you're

868
1:33:35.820 --> 1:33:41.340
kind of uh trademarking it so if I were to register in Florida for example you know that

869
1:33:41.340 --> 1:33:45.180
will give me protection in Florida and that would be with a trademark office in the floor

870
1:33:45.180 --> 1:33:49.820
like they each state has its own trademark process but if you file with the USPTO then

871
1:33:49.820 --> 1:33:53.980
you're getting a federal registration and that will give you a nationwide protection

872
1:33:55.020 --> 1:33:59.260
and if you wanted international protection though you'd have to file in other countries too right

873
1:34:00.300 --> 1:34:05.180
you yeah and there's also a system called the Madrid system that allows you to apply it's to

874
1:34:05.180 --> 1:34:10.380
have one one specific application that allows you to have protection different jurisdictions

875
1:34:10.380 --> 1:34:15.340
it's a little bit of a complex system so I won't get into details but you would basically it would

876
1:34:15.340 --> 1:34:20.860
be more financially easier to go through that process than having to go through each country

877
1:34:20.860 --> 1:34:25.980
because then you'll have to have an attorney in most countries and the USPTO requires that um

878
1:34:25.980 --> 1:34:29.900
you know if you're applying from abroad that you have representation in the US.

879
1:34:32.780 --> 1:34:37.020
okay this is the part I think you're saying this is where you get a lawyer

880
1:34:37.020 --> 1:34:44.060
I have to explain all these things to you yeah it could be it could be complex it could be complex

881
1:34:46.060 --> 1:34:52.940
okay the question says the last week 65 tonight mentioned that most NFTs are not unblocked chains

882
1:34:52.940 --> 1:34:58.620
they're simple pointers what I what I think this question is most of the art is not on chain it's

883
1:34:58.620 --> 1:35:09.820
on ipfs or our wave our server does this create any fragility from a legal point of view um I think

884
1:35:10.540 --> 1:35:17.900
two things uh first I think we have AWS holds the terms of use I think there's more fragility

885
1:35:17.900 --> 1:35:23.260
in that sense because you're basically letting a third party host whatever rights you get in that

886
1:35:23.260 --> 1:35:29.740
token in a third party website in the best case scenario they'll have that also in ipfs but um

887
1:35:29.740 --> 1:35:34.380
fragility from a legal standpoint no I think more from a technical standpoint I think that you

888
1:35:34.380 --> 1:35:38.940
the blockchain is always going to dictate you know who's has ownership but the pointers whether

889
1:35:38.940 --> 1:35:43.980
that pointer works or not I think it's just more creates more of a centralization because someone's

890
1:35:43.980 --> 1:35:49.820
going to have to pay for that ipfs so if we're kind of to if we want to emphasize or kind of push

891
1:35:49.820 --> 1:35:55.180
towards that decentralization you're kind of going against the grain if you have someone

892
1:35:55.180 --> 1:36:00.380
having to pay for that ipfs to continue hosting that so I think that's why some NFT projects

893
1:36:00.380 --> 1:36:05.660
are moving towards having on chain art and moving the arts on chain so that there's no actual

894
1:36:05.660 --> 1:36:11.820
fragility in that sense and our way was a little bit better you pay upfront rather than

895
1:36:11.820 --> 1:36:18.460
continuously having to pay that's a simple way to describe it but from a copyright perspective

896
1:36:18.460 --> 1:36:22.300
it shouldn't make a difference right like where it's hosted no not really it no

897
1:36:23.820 --> 1:36:27.980
it's kind of like when you buy a painting and you keep it in a museum you know it just depends

898
1:36:27.980 --> 1:36:31.980
on which museum you choose and just if you still own the copyright regardless of where

899
1:36:31.980 --> 1:36:39.500
that that's sitting okay that makes sense this one I'm going to take it says have I deemed

900
1:36:39.500 --> 1:36:45.900
my cryptopunk 6529 is cc0 and the answer is of course no because the further answer is

901
1:36:45.900 --> 1:36:53.580
I'm not allowed to that's not my decision to make that's a decision that Yuga Labs was to have to make

902
1:36:53.580 --> 1:36:57.820
if they were ever to make that decision I don't think they will but like in any case

903
1:36:57.820 --> 1:37:05.500
they would be the ones to make that decision I am in effect a licensee of Yuga Labs as it relates

904
1:37:05.500 --> 1:37:11.500
to 6529 there's a license agreement that I have to follow what we mentioned earlier

905
1:37:11.500 --> 1:37:19.100
and that license agreement wouldn't allow me to on behalf of you to declare that my

906
1:37:19.100 --> 1:37:23.500
punk is now in the public domain right that's a you get a decision not a me decision this is

907
1:37:23.500 --> 1:37:29.500
correct is this correct yeah and the way the easiest way to understand is you can give what you

908
1:37:29.500 --> 1:37:35.340
didn't get yourself so you can give more than you received so you receive an exclusive license you

909
1:37:35.340 --> 1:37:40.380
can give an assignment at that point so you can it's kind of like a funnel you can give more than

910
1:37:40.380 --> 1:37:53.500
you received okay here is a semi-technical question I think I don't think it's hard but let me see

911
1:37:54.060 --> 1:38:02.700
is there ever only one copy of artwork associated with NFT an example they use is IPFS that multiple

912
1:38:02.700 --> 1:38:08.620
copies may exist on each computer that's pinning it which one's the true version and does that even

913
1:38:08.620 --> 1:38:17.500
matter in any way no it doesn't matter and the way I see it is when the creator and I'm going to

914
1:38:17.500 --> 1:38:22.140
give an example so let's say you hire someone to make a piece of art for you the moment they created

915
1:38:22.140 --> 1:38:27.180
that piece of art and put it in tangible form that's the that's the original basically so anything

916
1:38:27.180 --> 1:38:33.260
else and again this is untested water so this is just an opinion it will be in maybe some different

917
1:38:33.260 --> 1:38:38.860
practitioners thing differently but once you put an IPFS that's a copy of that so you know you have

918
1:38:38.860 --> 1:38:44.140
ownership over the copyright but that's just basically a display of it or maybe a copy or a

919
1:38:44.140 --> 1:38:50.620
display of the actual copyright that you have ownership over but the moment that was put into

920
1:38:50.620 --> 1:38:55.500
tangible form that would be the original and doesn't really kind of make any difference

921
1:38:55.500 --> 1:39:02.700
because it's just the way that it is displayed so you could display it on IPFS or aws or Arwave

922
1:39:02.700 --> 1:39:07.740
it is the way that it's being displayed in multiple nodes host those things so that's

923
1:39:07.740 --> 1:39:14.060
what you're referring to um it would just your copyright would not be affected by that

924
1:39:15.740 --> 1:39:23.900
yep that makes perfect sense another Fidenza question if I sell a Fidenza my Fidenza I wish

925
1:39:23.900 --> 1:39:27.100
I don't know if it's a person means they wish they have a Fidenza or they wish they could sell

926
1:39:27.100 --> 1:39:36.220
a Fidenza uh what happens to the physical printed artwork that I also bought of my piece

927
1:39:36.220 --> 1:39:42.140
does the new owner have the right to also print the same piece are they open editions or one of

928
1:39:42.140 --> 1:39:52.700
ones and I'll just add here I think Tyler does I think just print for the first person who asks

929
1:39:52.700 --> 1:39:59.580
regardless of the token but how do we think about this from a copyright perspective um I think the

930
1:39:59.580 --> 1:40:05.980
copyright holder dictates those rights so we will have to go to Tyler Hobbs and those terms he

931
1:40:05.980 --> 1:40:12.540
and he he does he prints it for I think the first few um the first I think the first holder

932
1:40:12.540 --> 1:40:17.500
and if you go to his website it says like which ones are available and which ones are not um but I

933
1:40:17.500 --> 1:40:23.020
would I would say that that's depending on him and I know he's mentioned in the past he's he's

934
1:40:23.020 --> 1:40:26.780
written articles I don't know if any if you've seen this but he wrote an article about why he

935
1:40:26.780 --> 1:40:33.500
didn't want to have cc0 as in his work of art he actually wore what he wanted to keep a

936
1:40:33.500 --> 1:40:40.620
non-exclusive license and why that the reason why he kind of leaned towards that but I would lean

937
1:40:40.620 --> 1:40:45.260
towards this read the terms of Tyler Hobbs and each one of the Fidenzas in each one of his works

938
1:40:45.260 --> 1:40:53.660
um before we determined that right and so this is a good example of Fidenzas are

939
1:40:53.660 --> 1:41:00.380
released under a traditional license right they're not a commercial or cc0 and the copyright

940
1:41:00.380 --> 1:41:08.780
is owned by Tyler and that copyright can be expressed in um the nft art that's on Shane

941
1:41:08.780 --> 1:41:13.820
in the case of Fidenzas but also a print and because Tyler is in charge whatever the rules

942
1:41:13.820 --> 1:41:18.780
are on printing fidenzas Tyler gets to decide and Tyler could also decide to change the rules

943
1:41:18.780 --> 1:41:23.500
right tomorrow he could say that everyone that has a Fidenza could ask for a print if they want

944
1:41:23.500 --> 1:41:28.300
I mean he might not want to do that but if you wanted to he could right yeah those are copies

945
1:41:28.300 --> 1:41:32.620
those would be considered copies of the copyright and he would continue to be the owner and

946
1:41:32.620 --> 1:41:37.660
he does not mention anything against cc0 he said just not every project is intended to be

947
1:41:37.660 --> 1:41:46.220
nz zero and I agree I think they're you know each model is applicable to each project differently

948
1:41:46.220 --> 1:41:53.420
okay we have a question here about virtual clothing that says of trademark of

949
1:41:53.420 --> 1:41:59.500
clothing is a complicated matter one cannot trademark a plain blue shirt but the logo on it

950
1:41:59.500 --> 1:42:05.340
can we expect that virtual clothing given that the underlying code is unique will be applicable

951
1:42:05.340 --> 1:42:13.580
to trademark e.g. will we be able to trademark a plain blue shirt so it would have to indicate

952
1:42:13.580 --> 1:42:19.900
source so the plain blue shirt is not indicating source that would not function as a trademark

953
1:42:19.900 --> 1:42:24.060
but what you're asking is that it's hard to trade and I don't know if they're confusing

954
1:42:24.060 --> 1:42:29.900
copyrights and trademarks I think you might be a little bit of a confusion there but if it's just

955
1:42:29.900 --> 1:42:35.660
the blue shirt that's indicating source as this source of the remaining goods that you have then

956
1:42:35.660 --> 1:42:41.180
I would apply for a class nine which is a non-domotable digital asset that points to the blue shirts

957
1:42:41.180 --> 1:42:48.620
that you're selling that would be what you basically have to trademark and that's that that

958
1:42:48.620 --> 1:42:54.620
blue shirt you could actually have a trade dress which is like kind of the pack could be potentially

959
1:42:54.620 --> 1:43:00.140
even packaging so like the coca-cola bottle has a trademark on the trade dress so like the way

960
1:43:00.140 --> 1:43:05.420
the coca-cola bottle looks so that's what you're referring to and you could have multiple ways of

961
1:43:05.420 --> 1:43:11.500
kind of protecting that blue shirt that you're referring to. okay and I think you're right it

962
1:43:11.500 --> 1:43:17.660
might be unclear if this is a trademark or a copyright question okay with regards to the

963
1:43:17.660 --> 1:43:24.940
can't-be-evil license what's the licenses development and acceptance trajectory and how are high

964
1:43:24.940 --> 1:43:31.660
potential stakeholders responding to it I think for the benefit of the audience the can't-be-evil

965
1:43:31.660 --> 1:43:39.980
license is a sample NFT commercial license that Andreessen Horowitz developed on their own

966
1:43:39.980 --> 1:43:47.980
I had they had asked me for some feedback that I gave it was an Andreessen Horowitz project that

967
1:43:47.980 --> 1:43:52.460
then they released to the world and said we think this is a good commercial license and feel free

968
1:43:52.460 --> 1:43:56.940
to use it what are your views on the license have you seen people adopting it you have any

969
1:43:56.940 --> 1:44:07.580
perspective on this um I'll say this I think everyone it's going to I don't like templates

970
1:44:07.580 --> 1:44:12.140
personally just because I think templates kind of uh you're adopting someone else's thought

971
1:44:12.140 --> 1:44:18.940
process basically on what they intended to give um but I think it's a good framework for you to

972
1:44:18.940 --> 1:44:23.340
think about okay like do I want this and you could slice and dice however you want so like you

973
1:44:23.340 --> 1:44:28.300
as a copyright holder you get to have all the bundle of rights that we mentioned earlier at the

974
1:44:28.300 --> 1:44:34.620
beginning and you could slice them and dice them however you want so you could give anyone the right

975
1:44:34.620 --> 1:44:39.260
to for going back to the analogy of the house you could get someone the right to enter your kitchen

976
1:44:39.260 --> 1:44:45.340
or only enter your bathroom so it's you you have the say on how much you want to give and what the

977
1:44:45.340 --> 1:44:51.340
scope of that is um so for those I think this is a good starting point I really think they did a

978
1:44:51.340 --> 1:44:56.860
great job of kind of like addressing some of the issues in this space but I think you need to read

979
1:44:56.860 --> 1:45:01.420
those through Lindsay how applicable they are to what you're intending to grant and what you're

980
1:45:01.420 --> 1:45:08.620
intending to keep a control over yeah this makes sense it's how I think about it too I mean you have

981
1:45:09.340 --> 1:45:14.380
it's a very interesting template to look at there's no creative common templates look like I mean

982
1:45:14.380 --> 1:45:19.260
honestly I think the cryptopunks license is quite good in that dimension that's another area to look

983
1:45:19.260 --> 1:45:26.060
at and I don't know that any major projects are taking these directly copy pasting and not making

984
1:45:26.060 --> 1:45:30.700
any changes but in a way it doesn't matter right like if there are good ideas and people put them out

985
1:45:30.700 --> 1:45:41.820
there um it'll help the space move forward yeah yeah oh good let's take maybe a couple more questions

986
1:45:41.820 --> 1:45:47.420
and then I mean I thank you we've taken up a lot of your time now we're heading towards two hours so

987
1:45:48.300 --> 1:45:54.700
I do want to bring it to an end at some point so let's do a couple more questions and then wrap

988
1:45:54.700 --> 1:46:01.260
this up this is blockchain is borderless which it is or is crypto assets public watch answer borderless

989
1:46:03.420 --> 1:46:07.180
how do you think about I'm going to rephrase the question a little bit but how do you think about

990
1:46:08.220 --> 1:46:15.020
copyright and licensing across a variety of foreign countries

991
1:46:17.260 --> 1:46:23.980
um so that's an interesting question because as far as copyright goes um there's no such thing

992
1:46:23.980 --> 1:46:30.860
as international copyright so each country has its own regime that protects authors and they're not

993
1:46:30.860 --> 1:46:36.300
extraterritorial so um that does so that our US copyright does not protect against copying outside

994
1:46:36.300 --> 1:46:41.580
of the US works by American authors but we do have some treaties so in specific jurisdictions that

995
1:46:41.580 --> 1:46:49.180
have signed on so treaties like the burn convention um and that basically you and this is a very

996
1:46:49.180 --> 1:46:54.300
complicated area so I don't want to get too deep into it but if an American author for example is

997
1:46:54.300 --> 1:46:59.180
in French in France they will have a member of the treaty party like they will have the same

998
1:46:59.180 --> 1:47:05.340
rights as a French author would have um but again there's there's more to it than that so it just

999
1:47:06.220 --> 1:47:12.300
might take on it is um we've been fighting over and international rights and some kind of a

1000
1:47:13.260 --> 1:47:18.700
kind of across the board kind of standardization for a long time I doubt we're going to get to

1001
1:47:18.700 --> 1:47:23.900
a place where everyone's of the same regime um but there are some treaties that allow us to

1002
1:47:23.900 --> 1:47:28.220
have some rights that are similar to or that will have the same treatment if you were in that

1003
1:47:28.220 --> 1:47:38.700
jurisdiction and a specific person from that jurisdiction so short answer is it's complicated

1004
1:47:38.700 --> 1:47:43.100
possibly more complicated the internet might be even more complicated than international

1005
1:47:43.100 --> 1:47:51.020
trademarks less standardized than trademarks are maybe yeah I would say so um it does like

1006
1:47:51.020 --> 1:47:55.980
there's section 104 which potentially protects like unpolished works so like there's there's a

1007
1:47:55.980 --> 1:48:03.020
different like a kind of nuances to international space that could be very complex but for

1008
1:48:03.020 --> 1:48:09.580
the most part just know that if you are part of a treaty which the US is of such as the burn

1009
1:48:09.580 --> 1:48:14.540
convention you likely have some rights in that jurisdiction that's also part of that same treaty

1010
1:48:14.540 --> 1:48:20.060
and they could be very similar and I don't want to speak in generalizations but yeah they tend

1011
1:48:20.060 --> 1:48:26.620
to be very similar not to generalize okay last question this is a funny one uh

1012
1:48:27.820 --> 1:48:35.180
crypto punks versus crypto funks they look exactly like the exact same pfp just mirror image

1013
1:48:35.180 --> 1:48:43.980
which any copyright issues there until someone brings the lawsuit then I'll refrain from that

1014
1:48:43.980 --> 1:48:49.900
conversation because I know he tried to be mca but um I think it's just depends on who wants to

1015
1:48:49.900 --> 1:48:56.380
litigate that okay right so that would be a specific that have to be a specific lawsuit

1016
1:48:56.380 --> 1:49:04.460
on a specific topic and then we'd discover I assume the crypto funks would make some type of

1017
1:49:04.460 --> 1:49:13.820
fair use commentary type argument and if you go wanted to pursue them they would say it's

1018
1:49:13.820 --> 1:49:22.780
not that you're commercially using my copyright but so far this in the broad crypto punks versus

1019
1:49:22.780 --> 1:49:29.260
crypto funk sense has not gone to court and so the reality is we don't know until it happens

1020
1:49:29.260 --> 1:49:34.780
with a specific set of facts and specific set of arguments how a court would decide right yeah and

1021
1:49:34.780 --> 1:49:38.780
I say that also because they could bring into question the copyrightability of the crypto

1022
1:49:38.780 --> 1:49:44.460
punks so that's why it's it's more than just hey are they similar it's a little bit more complex

1023
1:49:44.460 --> 1:49:49.740
because someone could bring into question like is that even a copyrightable um subject matter

1024
1:49:49.740 --> 1:49:56.620
because they're so they were created by AI or and I know Professor Brian Fry has an

1025
1:49:56.620 --> 1:50:00.860
article on the copyrightability of crypto punks so that's why I think there's a lot of things that

1026
1:50:00.860 --> 1:50:08.700
could come into question if that also comes about in a litigation right so because in a way that

1027
1:50:08.700 --> 1:50:14.700
we're not in a way I mean the crypto punks like a lot of general projects a lot of PFP projects

1028
1:50:14.700 --> 1:50:20.540
are generative right you didn't know what streets we're going to get and so what you're saying is

1029
1:50:20.540 --> 1:50:28.140
is for there to be a lawsuit here you go would have to bring it right and if you're

1030
1:50:28.780 --> 1:50:36.460
brought the copyright holder would have to bring it right yes um and that's because they gave exclusive

1031
1:50:36.460 --> 1:50:41.820
rights to so like when you give exclusive rights normally and then this is how it's enforced normally

1032
1:50:41.820 --> 1:50:46.860
when you give exclusive rights you give that person who gets that exclusivity the right to sue as well

1033
1:50:46.860 --> 1:50:53.500
because it's exclusive to you you're basically taking my place as the creator in a way legally speaking

1034
1:50:53.500 --> 1:50:56.780
so um the holder would have to bring that so if you're somebody's in front of your

1035
1:50:56.780 --> 1:51:01.420
punk you could potentially bring that but then they might come back in the defense and say well

1036
1:51:01.420 --> 1:51:06.620
you don't have something that is not even uh copyrightable because it was created by AI so

1037
1:51:06.620 --> 1:51:12.060
therefore there's no there's no actual creation of that's allowed to be copyrighted in the first

1038
1:51:12.060 --> 1:51:17.340
place wow and you have a registration and you have to have a registration in order for you to

1039
1:51:17.340 --> 1:51:21.260
bring that into law so even in the in the first place you also have to have the registration

1040
1:51:21.260 --> 1:51:24.860
which you could potentially have and I think they do mention that in the terms of use you could bring

1041
1:51:24.860 --> 1:51:32.380
that you could actually register your asset and I think they they mentioned

1042
1:51:32.380 --> 1:51:38.380
that briefly in the terms of use amazing but you have yeah they explain how you want they want they

1043
1:51:38.380 --> 1:51:43.260
want to keep some kind of control over it over the registration as I think they want to be named as

1044
1:51:43.260 --> 1:51:49.180
the the owner and you could be uh or the author I can't recall but it's in the terms of use that

1045
1:51:49.180 --> 1:51:56.940
whether you could register wow this is where this stuff is super interesting super complicated but

1046
1:51:56.940 --> 1:52:05.420
I mean just utterly fascinating we are here on the frontier I think of IP and technology and networks

1047
1:52:05.420 --> 1:52:13.980
I think we need to say an utterly gigantic thank-you to Ellie for today she a presentation was

1048
1:52:14.780 --> 1:52:20.940
hers she put it together I just put in the pretty pictures that was my contribution was like I copy

1049
1:52:20.940 --> 1:52:26.620
pasted some pictures in there all of this was Ellie it's obvious she knows everything inside out

1050
1:52:26.620 --> 1:52:33.580
and backwards I very much appreciate the time she gave us so everyone please give her a virtual

1051
1:52:33.580 --> 1:52:42.300
round of applause and thank you so much thank you I think you did a lot more than that so thank you